ESE's works engine tuner

[kel]

The rules say:

2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled

Whilst there is anyway some interpretation to be had with rules, they do not say that the 125s are allowed anything but water-cooling, they say air cooled. Therefore, wax cooling or whatever other matter state changing cooling would seem to be against this simple rule.

Why? Obviously the intent of the rule is direct air cooling with no other medium involved, but I don't see the word "direct" anywhere in the rule.

[Frits Overmars]

Obviously the intent of the rule is direct air cooling with no other medium involved, but I don't see the word "direct" anywhere in the rule.

If you look at it that way, water cooling is air cooling too, unless you leave the radiator at home and apply a total loss water cooling system, which would be forbidden because of the water spillage on the track.
Writing watertight rules ain't easy .

[Ocean1]

The rules say:

Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc

F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

Whilst there is anyway some interpretation to be had with rules, they do not say that the 125s are allowed anything but water-cooling, they say air cooled. Therefore, wax cooling or whatever other matter state changing cooling would seem to be against this simple rule.

A water cooled cyl/head filled with wax is still air cooled. Nothing is actively pumping or migrating heat away from the cylinder for remote cooling, it's all solid, simply a composite cylinder.

[Ocean1]

Writing watertight rules ain't easy .

Sure it is. You just have to define what IS allowed, rather than what's not.

And in doing so you eliminate any technical development whatsoever.

[F5 Dave]

Just hit buy for a mustang intercooler pump which supposedly does 30l/m, only drawback 2.8A which is twice what my galley pump draws, hopefully charging cct can keep up.

Anyone have a decent cheap temp gauge idea? I've been through 3 Daytona ones over the years.

[Frits Overmars]

Writing watertight rules ain't easy

Sure it is. You just have to define what IS allowed, rather than what's not. And in doing so you eliminate any technical development whatsoever.

Eliminating technical development is the last thing I want to do. Besides, defining what is allowed will make the rulebook five times as thick and there will always be omissions. For example, you won't be allowed to change your tire pressures if the rulebook doesn't say that you can.

[Ocean1]

Eliminating technical development is the last thing I want to do. Besides, defining what is allowed will make the rulebook five times as thick and there will always be omissions. For example, you won't be allowed to change your tire pressures if the rulebook doesn't say that you can.

Oh I agree. The alternative does exist, though, there are competition classes that basically specify a standard production vehicle and a very short list of permissible alterations. The objective is obviously to remove any variables other than the pilot.

And while I don't have a problem with that I don't find such racing very interesting. Probably because I'm a singularly inept pilot. I do enjoy seeing technical innovation reaping rewards, though. I guess the trick is balancing the rules in order to penalise both skill sets as little as possible.

[kel]

If you look at it that way, water cooling is air cooling too

Agreed, I even considered testing this theory but figured I'd be disqualified by some supplementry ruling introduced on the day.

[wobbly]

We have been thru all this bollocks before.
Here we have a group where the majority have trouble getting the ports in the right place, even more trouble stopping what is very basic
old technology from seizing regularly, yet we are deep into a discussion about bloody wax filled heads.
Sure - interesting, but how relevant really.

[kel]

We have been thru all this bollocks before.
Here we have a group where the majority have trouble getting the ports in the right place, even more trouble stopping what is very basic
old technology from seizing regularly, yet we are deep into a discussion about bloody wax filled heads.
Sure - interesting, but how relevant really.

Interesting take on the discussion.
I for one have only had one actual seizure, and that was due to overheating. My old tech air cooler with its ports in the wrong place is making an easy and fat 29+ rear wheel hp, there's more in there but how do I effectively cool it? Personally I feel the discussion is both interesting and relevant. Of course my time would be better spent focusing on handling, but that's not nearly as interesting.

[cotswold]

Interesting take on the discussion.
I for one have only had one actual seizure, and that was due to overheating. My old tech air cooler with its ports in the wrong place is making an easy and fat 29+ rear wheel hp, there's more in there but how do I effectively cool it? Personally I feel the discussion is both interesting and relevant. Of course my time would be better spent focusing on handling, but that's not nearly as interesting.

You have an NF4 chassis when you get it set up well only Rods TZ would be any better handling.

[TZ350]

... trouble stopping what is very basic old technology from seizing regularly, yet we are deep into a discussion about bloody wax filled heads. Sure - interesting, but how relevant really.

Old technology is what we have to work with (until unrestricted MX85's come along ) and the first step to making more power with the ports in the right place on these outdated engines is to organise sufficient effective cooling for the target power output.

If you want to explore the limits of what is possible with the old engines then, its figuring out the cooling first, then making power. Otherwise you really will keep seizing all the time.

And like Kel said, we would probably be much better off looking at handling and setup and putting a lot of thought into our riding technique, but thats boring for some of us. My interest is building bikes first, then trotting them around at a pace I understand, turns out that is quite a bit slower than others manage.

How much can hp help a good rider, its a good question.

As I have recently been sent an official MNZ report written after dyno testing of the top three standard production bikes at a recent meeting where there were some very good riders on supposedly equal machinery.

At the end of the day there was a feeling around the pits at HD that the winner who took it away by a country mile may be benefiting from a power advantage.

But more on this episode later.

[F5 Dave]

You have an NF4 chassis when you get it set up well only Rods TZ would be any better handling.

Wrong. On a kart track they under steer. A GPR framed bike handles way better and so would a NX4. DDs bikes have further work to jack the rear up more than poss std I'm trying that next.

[peewee]

speaking of cooling systems , i was looking for info on the 2016 ktm 2t bikes because i heard rumor that ktm will have a 350cc 2t this year, maybe its all rumor as i couldnt find any evidence of it. ktm seems to be keeping the new 2t hidden for the most part but i found something kind of neat that i havent seen on any of the other jap mx bikes. appears ktm is starting to look more closely at the little things. they designed new gaurds in front of the radiators to better direct the air. 10% better cooling efficiency while maintaining the same coolant capacity and radiator surface area as previous years. maybe its old hat but ive had a ton of mx bikes and they always have just plain old plastic gaurds in front of the rads.


"KTM’s engineers put lots of thought into their radiator design. Rather than just put old-school plastic guards on the front of their radiators, KTM used wind tunnels to design a new radiator guard shape that flows more air (and is made from a stiffer plastic to help the flow and act as a radiator brace). The radiator shrouds also seal against the outer edge of the radiators to direct airflow into the radiator’s cores. There is a new filler cap and filler neck that seals better than last year’s design. The end result of all of this work is that the exact same capacity and surface area produces 10 percent better cooling efficiency"

[TZ350]

Ducting ... food for thought.