ESE's works engine tuner

[pugs]

That's interesting, what are we looking at? LPG transfer port injection?The white thing, pumping bellows?

That's not mine, but yep, LPG transfer port injection and some passive compressor..

Your idea looks rather simple compared to some suggestions I've seen here. But your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right?
It may function at 3.000 rpm, but the Ryger revs past 30.000 if you keep your foot down (which I did the first time I gave it some throttle, because I expected 125 cc kart-like acceleration, not the rocket launch I got) .

Well it's a crap then...
Btw, not mine, not my idea, just scraping the web actually

But judging from the way you wrote,
"your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right?"

looks like it's indeed a pumping cylinder?
Let's change it to another high tech/more progressive stuff then.. Comprex? Timed compressor (no idea if it's even existed)? Or thing like Husa posted above (whatever it'll be called)? Or... dunno, looks like i'm too drunk now...

[adegnes]

Your idea looks rather simple compared to some suggestions I've seen here. But your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right?
It may function at 3.000 rpm, but the Ryger revs past 30.000 if you keep your foot down (which I did the first time I gave it some throttle, because I expected 125 cc kart-like acceleration, not the rocket launch I got) .

!!! This has to be some clever stuff indeed.

[breezy]

OK, I give in Frits, this game is no fun any more. Back to the open ended sliding sleeve engine I think, just need to make a piston to suit and it's almost ready for a fire up ( with standard reed sysem ).
If it makes 70HP I'll take some half assed photos, so as you can't quite see how it works

i cant wait to see this set up, may be you could also try injection..... inject fuel into the cylinder from the head and use the rest of the engine as a air pump, backed up by a compressed air system.. i was around a friends unit yesterday and almost jumped out my skin when the air compressor kicked in , amazing the speed of air tools.

[Grumph]

Thanks Frits for posting the links to the standard VM motor. I don't see any current kart stuff these days so it made an interesting comparison to the Ryger - as i assume you intended...
A lot has been added to the right hand side, including apparently,the ignition, which has freed up the left end of the crank. In the front on shot of the Kart installation it is possible to see something on the left end of the crank. What it is of course we are still guessing...It appears to be a black circular piece to my old eyes. I hope that's not just a standard cover...
Crank driven compressor housing ? The only induction source visible is through the carb so I can't see how it would fit into the scheme of things.
I'm prepared to be patient but it's fun watching husa work up a froth.

[wobbly]

None of this speculation addresses the main mechanical wizardry - 30,000 rpm from a 125cc single.
Thats exactly twice what we see in a KZ2 engine with 54,5mm stroke, and even that takes a huge amount of development time to achieve.

[jonny quest]

It's definitely acheived from less friction and pumping losses. Plus if that's a true view of an unaltered piston with run time... I believe the crankcase isn't used anymore as a pump. Transfers are directing mixture straight in on top of piston.

Maybe the idle is high enough where expansion chamber is doing the work of crankcase now.

[Grumph]

None of this speculation addresses the main mechanical wizardry - 30,000 rpm from a 125cc single.
Thats exactly twice what we see in a KZ2 engine with 54,5mm stroke, and even that takes a huge amount of development time to achieve.

True. A plain big end could be made to take those revs - but the rod and pins would have to be pretty exotic. The piston is the big question of course - does it have rings ? Does it even need them at those revs ? Rapid solidification alloys ? Aluminium Beryllium alloys ?

How long has that engine run so far ? Is that classified Frits ?

[breezy]

None of this speculation addresses the main mechanical wizardry - 30,000 rpm from a 125cc single.
Thats exactly twice what we see in a KZ2 engine with 54,5mm stroke, and even that takes a huge amount of development time to achieve.

i can only think of model ic engines and electric motors which achieve such rpm levels

[wobbly]

30,000 rpm is 55M/sec, we are living on the outer edge of reliability at 30M/sec with 54.5mm stroke right now with exactly the same engine config.
The view down the cylinder would appear to indicate no ports are open at least 25mm of stroke,so the real clever
part of the equation isnt the ports or piston or pipe or whatever - its how the reciprocating mechanism is jigged to run that high.

[Flettner]

Frits, what is the HP at 30,000 RPM? What BMEP at those revs?
Ok, I can't help myself, I still want to play.

[speedpro]

I tried revving my MB100 to only 20,000rpm once. It didn't end well. 30,000rpm is getting up there. We've had my 4T 125 twin up to 19,000rpm indicated. Sitting next to an engine doing even more would take balls, and probably a kevlar vest.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, what is the HP at 30,000 RPM? What BMEP at those revs?
Ok, I can't help myself, I still want to play.

Sorry Neil, I'm not yet at liberty to answer direct questions like these (and there is 50 % redundancy in that question ).

[husaberg]

Thanks Frits for posting the links to the standard VM motor. I don't see any current kart stuff these days so it made an interesting comparison to the Ryger - as i assume you intended...
A lot has been added to the right hand side, including apparently,the ignition, which has freed up the left end of the crank. In the front on shot of the Kart installation it is possible to see something on the left end of the crank. What it is of course we are still guessing...It appears to be a black circular piece to my old eyes. I hope that's not just a standard cover...
Crank driven compressor housing ? The only induction source visible is through the carb so I can't see how it would fit into the scheme of things.
I'm prepared to be patient but it's fun watching husa work up a froth.

A comprex compressor would just need a simple drive much like a push bike dynamo.It has little friction.
I think it may work just to lower the pumping losses rather than a supercharger

Attachment 312483
Neil and I both mentioned this.
Assuming I am right (Big ask lol), on the steam engine tech sliding induction it would only need a very short skirt it would have less inertia it would also have no side thrust.
It may be only riding effectively on the rings.
Plain bearings as you say would be fine.
I will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash.
Attachment 312482

Greg you are patient, because you did you masonry apprenticeship with Mosses

Sorry Neil, I'm not yet at liberty to answer direct questions like these.

The view down the cylinder would appear to indicate no ports are open at least 25mm of stroke,so the real clever

RE the steam tech picture I posted, theoretically could that sort of thing work on a two stroke and make decent power?
The air flow seams pretty constant surely that must help a little.

[ken seeber]

Ryger Revisiting. Looking at the pics again:
1. Oil catch can/separator and vent, few hoses here and there
2. Piston has no engraving on crown, therefore a custom made unit
3. Spacer plate under barrel (I think this is the key to incorporating a new gizmo)
4. Reed housing still present as on VM engine. Maybe just for convenience to use existing crankcases. (could be completely blanked off)
5. Connection pipe between the old and new reed housings. Yes or no? Could be the bottom one, if it was wet sumped, is really going to the catch can. The top one, then going to a pressure activated fuel pump.
6. External of cylinder very much the same as a VM cylinder, other than the Ryger logo, inlet side stud bosses are higher and reed valve housing, with a carb bore axis that appears to be a bit lower than reed centreline. Probably got a Czech/Dutch version or long lost cousin of Neil to make the cylinder, possible scabbing key internal sand cores etc from VM
7. Deeply recessed and presumably spigotted into cylinder squish zone (as indicated by others) cylinder head.
8. Gearbox seems to have a regular breather, therefore possibly not connected to the engine lubrication.
9. Frits reckons the head is standard plus around 98% of all the bits. Given this, then because of the fact that it is spigotted, then the bore & stroke are the nominal 54 * 54
10. Ryger staters on deracehelden forum (with a really dodgy translation…. to me at least) that main bearings are plain, not sure if he also included the bigend, maybe there isn’t one?
11. Ignition coil looks standard, Grumph have I missed something??

Anything else fellers?




The pic shows an overlay of a scotch crank mechanism onto the crankcase drawing. To me, with the necessary material required to house the mechanism, then there is not much chance to fit this in. Can’t see anything of this size on the main pic, but the angle of the dangle is such that you can’t see this area, which would be below the old reed block housing.

BTW Frits, how did the Modena 24/7 and, separately, the direct inlet go? They certainly looked like 2 different concepts.

[TZ350]

Anyway, concerning Ryger engine, I tend to believe the basic concept works like this...

That's interesting, what are we looking at? the white thing, pumping bellows?

Your idea looks rather simple compared to some suggestions I've seen here. But your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right? It may function at 3.000 rpm, but the Ryger revs past 30.000.

Pumping Bellows are a possibility, 30,000 rpm is only 500 Hz, mid woofer speakers can manage 500 Hz all day long.

6,000 rpm is 100 Hz, 12,000 rpm is 200 Hz and 24,000 is 400 Hz so all well within the range of mid woofer speaker type bellows. The bellows would be quite easy to drive from an alternator and the driving force would automatically increase as the power from the alternator increases with increased rpm.

I have often thought of driving a rotary valve like shuttle in a push pull arrangement using two voice coils driven by pulses from an alternator. The output from the driving source could easily be timed to the inlet cycle and with a bit of electrical trickery one could very easily have variable inlet duration and positioning in the inlet cycle.

I had also thought of pumping bellows at the end of a plenum but that would be supercharging, or would it be if they were driven by pulses from the exhaust pipe (chamber). Even looked at a Comprex compressor type arrangement too.

The timing (variable) of the pulse from the electrically driven bellows could be arranged to arrive at the inlet port proper just as the inlet was cracking open or maybe just as reversion in the inlet was starting to happen.

It might also be possible to drive two contra rotating rotary valves with stepping motors and a small ECU to control them in such a way that varies the inlet duration and the open position on the inlet cycle. This could be a fly by wire throttle too.

But don't go expecting to see a Team ESE bike with any of this stuff on it, any time soon ....