ESE's works engine tuner

[karter444]

Hi Wobbly thanks for the reply the flywheel dia is 88 mm the lobe width is 8.25 and the lobe length is nearly 30 mm
cheers

[ken seeber]

You guys ask me if I can answer your questions. The answer is: yes, I can .

(OK, the Ryger is easy to start and idles like a normal 2T. I wonder what this candour is going to cost me; I hope I can settle the matter with some ice cream).

Frits,
The Ryger engine has a lot going for it from what appears on the various forums:
1. 30k potential
2. Lots of power
3. Better fuel consumption and hence less emissions, presumably unburnt HC
4. Low production costs
I can’t help thinking on the 3rd point. You made the comment above re idling. You might need your glasses to read it though.
So, when you said a “idles like a normal 2T”, did you mean a carburetted engine that typically 4 strokes, 6 strokes, 8 strokes etc (a classic” ring-a-ding”) or did you mean a refined clean 2T operation (eg a direct injected engine idles as a true 2T, ie it fires every stroke)?
If it was the former, then it’d be hard to see, from that characteristic, that it could have less fuel consumption and lower emissions.
As to the ice-cream, what would you like, vanilla, chocolate? We have all flavours in the southern hemisphere.

[kel]

Hi Wobbly thanks for the reply the flywheel dia is 88 mm the lobe width is 8.25 and the lobe length is nearly 30 mm
cheers

I was using a similar setup i.e. KX125 rotor and pick up triggering an ignitech. We ground away the bulk of the lobe length, and closed up the gap between the pickup and lobe to as tight as could be achieved without causing interference. If the gap was opened up just slightly it would start to misfire at around 7k. Dump the original KX pickup (if that's what you are using) and buy one of the ignitech units.

[wobbly]

Yep the lobe is too long - 1/2 its length and all will be fine.
I dont know if the KX trigger is shit, but I have never had any trouble with regular CR125/250 types.
The Ignitech one operates exactly the same as the Kokusan type Honda ones, nothing special at all.
There is an option under special setting called wide lobe, this is probably to suit exactly what you have, but I have never used it.

[Frits Overmars]

when you said a “idles like a normal 2T”, did you mean a carburetted engine that typically 4 strokes, 6 strokes, 8 strokes etc (a classic” ring-a-ding”) or did you mean a refined clean 2T operation (eg a direct injected engine idles as a true 2T, ie it fires every stroke)? If it was the former, then it’d be hard to see, from that characteristic, that it could have less fuel consumption and lower emissions.
As to the ice-cream, what would you like, vanilla, chocolate? We have all flavours in the southern hemisphere.

I usually order Malaga (vanilla with raisins soaked in rum) but pure vanilla is OK as well.
Re the idling: good point, Ken. I must admit that up to now I hardly paid attention to the way the Ryger engine idles; we're no idle characters .
Pure two-stroking idling in a carburetted engine is nearly impossible to achieve. Igniteability (is that english?) requires a certain minimum quantity and quality of cylinder filling, which in turn will lead to 'too much power'; the idling rpm will be so high that you can't really call it idling any more. For HC-free low-rpm idling you'll need skip-cycle direct injection. But I need not tell you that, coming from Orbital.
We can however have an idling that sounds like two-stroking if the engine is evenly four-stroking or six-stroking. Much depends on the position of the spark plug.
I used to race a big two-stroke single with a choice of plug positions and although it had next to no influence on WOT power, there was a remarkable difference in idling behaviour between a central and an offset plug.

[sonic_v]

For HC-free low-rpm idling you'll need skip-cycle direct injection.

The Evinrude etec outboard engines idle at 500 rpm without using skip injection whilst matching the 4-stroke competition for hc's.

[Frits Overmars]

The Evinrude etec outboard engines idle at 500 rpm without using skip injection whilst matching the 4-stroke competition for hc's.

Etec is direct injection, so skipping would be quite simple. Can you be sure that this is not the case?
Injecting a tiny amount of fuel at each revolution does not guarantee combustion at every revolution. For example, if it fails every second cycle, the engine will still sound like it is two-stroking. Failed combustion cycles can occur in an idling four-stroke too, so a HC-comparison must not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the two-stroke does not miss a single beat. And are these HC-data split up in idling, cruising and WOT, or do they just cover over-all usage?

[sonic_v]

Injecting a tiny amount of fuel at each revolution does not guarantee combustion at every revolution.

The etec uses stratified charge combustion at idle and low loads and thus it is certainly feasible to have consistent cycle to cycle combustion.

Some more info http://www.boattest.com/engine-revie...-250-H-O-_2014

[Frits Overmars]

Some more info http://www.boattest.com/engine-revie...-250-H-O-_2014

An interesting read. However I could not find any mentioning of 'idling without using skip injection'. Have you got any more documentation?

[adegnes]

Is the 2 stroke a the stage when there is nothing new to discover with the two stroke. I don't think so .....yet.

Looking through old posts for engmod stuff, found this.

[breezy]

The apparent gain in power spread was one of the selling points of Ricky Main's Geneva wheel motor/con trick....IMO the same applies here, not true.
You've still got a piston reciprocating at a finite - and as wob has pointed out, pretty limited velocity. So this crank setup simply means half as many revs at the output shaft for the usual piston speed.

Has Frits said that the piston rpm is 30,000 or the output shaft can run at 30,000 rpm. if the piston moves through 360 degrees does the output shaft move through 720 degrees? is that the thinking of the crank ratio posts?

[Grumph]

Has Frits said that the piston rpm is 30,000 or the output shaft can run at 30,000 rpm. if the piston moves through 360 degrees does the output shaft move through 720 degrees? is that the thinking of the crank ratio posts?

Semantics....He said he saw 30,000rpm....If the tacho is crank driven, that doesn't necessarily mean the piston is doing the same. If the tacho was picking up impulses from the plug lead, it's a lot more impressive...

[breezy]

Semantics....He said he saw 30,000rpm....If the tacho is crank driven, that doesn't necessarily mean the piston is doing the same. If the tacho was picking up impulses from the plug lead, it's a lot more impressive...

mmmm semantics ..., word trickery....

[Tim Ey]

Yep the lobe is too long - 1/2 its length and all will be fine.
I dont know if the KX trigger is shit, but I have never had any trouble with regular CR125/250 types.
The Ignitech one operates exactly the same as the Kokusan type Honda ones, nothing special at all.
There is an option under special setting called wide lobe, this is probably to suit exactly what you have, but I have never used it.

Strange. For the subject of kick-started engines I talked to Ignitech and they told me this:
"Hello,

You have make pulse lobe with lenght about 30 degrees. Surface, height and
width of pulse lobe must be homogenous.
We recommended to use pick-up IP6.

Regards.

Jiri Krejzl
IGNITECH"

My daily driver with ignitech has now exactly 30° of lobe lenght - and I am not able to adjust the idle where I want it to be. 3000RPM is as low as it gets.
On my RZ350 the lobe length seems to be shorter - and this engine has a nice idle.

So talking about the KX engine of karter4444: half of 30mm would be around 20° of lobe lenght. So would that be the general lenght you would recoment for a kickstarted engine?

And is there a base advance I should prefer?
cheers and thanks!
Tim

[wobbly]

The length of the lobe makes no difference to the performance parameters of the Ignitech, except the issues we have seen
when it is too long.
Its the trailing edge position that triggers the spark event, but in some cases the leading edge is used to limit the total advance capability.
Below 300rpm the base timing is the default timing when the ecu first starts to supply a spark, above that the curve takes over.
You want enough base timing to enable ignition to occur early enough, but not so early that you can get "kick back " that can if bad enough
cause the engine to start backwards, or at the least break your leg.
I have found that 10 to 20* of base timing works fine in almost every case with a kickstarter.