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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #18601
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    24th January 2014 - 08:12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    The alloy plugs cant be weld retained ( but several pressed in dimples on the circumference helps ) so i press them in with around 0.03 to 0.05mm
    interference.
    The Mallory inserts can be retained by simply melting the crank material into the plug in a couple of opposite arcs on each side, so the press fit can be reduced
    to 0.01 - 0.02 .
    You have to be careful with this as I have had a crank web split out from the Mallory hole, to the wheel circumference ,as the press fit was too tight due to the
    plug being slightly oversize.
    Interesting thing to do!
    I once fitted a tungsten insert that started moving in the crank, by deforming the edge of it with a center punch.
    Sorry for my curiousity but I really do not like to weld on cranks: Has anyone a hint how high I must go with the press fit without using any special tricks?

    For some Numbers: I just got my calculater working:
    The Force of my tungsten insert will be 16,2KN @ 15000RPM (WOW!)
    Incredibly high - perhaps I calculated it wrong...
    Radius of the Center: 32mm
    Diameter of the Tungsten: 22mm

    Space to the edge of the crank: 3mm (is this enough?)
    Space to the neighbouring Tungsten: 2,5mm (same question here)

    Cheers!
    Tim

  2. #18602
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    Well that was Mt Wellington today, first of the points races for the new season, I had finished third overall in F5 last year. Today the track had dried out by lunch time but it was a bitterly cold wind all afternoon.

    A grade again was for the two strokes. Finishing order was Dave - Will - Nathaniel, race one and Dave - Nathaniel - Will, race two, with Garry a bit further back, maybe 5th and Rod a place or two astern of that. Rods bike sounded very sharp.

    Great to see Speedpros tuning work running at the head of the pack. I was riding in F5. In the last F5 race, only Nathaniel and myself made it to the start line. It was supposed to be a 12 lap race but the Starter gave me a half lap head start and then held out the chequered flag after Nat had caught and passed me, didn't take long, short race ....

  3. #18603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightbulb View Post
    Do you have any plan or info on the dyno you made ?
    Not on me, Neil.
    The flywheel is the critical part. I can't remember which steel it was made out of, but the flywheel and both shaft stubs were made out of one lump. No holes, no shrink or press fits, no welding or glueing. The centrifugal tension concentrates on the center and if there is a hole there, you lose 50% of the permissible tension.

    The eddy current brake brought problems of its own. The rotor inside is exposed to the same centrifugal force, but it can't be made of just any high-quality steel; it has to be ferromagnetic. Moreover it tends to heat itself up. Having it double as an impeller can generate a cooling air flow through the brake, but that generates about as much noise as the engine. And worse, that air flow distorts the amount of torque exerted by the brake on the load cell, unless the direction of the outflowing hot air is changed from tangential into axial by stationary vanes or drillings.

    Some more pictures of the dyno:
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    The problem is that with just trying different props etc it is hard to figure out where the real power is with which particular pipe.
    True. Measuring with test props will you give just one point of the power curve per measurement; your engine will be worn out before the curve is completed.

    ...I also had pressure transducers on a pipe at different places as well. It just gave me more questions than answers, and nothing lines up with all that I read about how tuned pipes actually worked.
    Pressure measuring gives you the pressure at a given distance from the exhaust port, at a given point in time. With pressure waves coming and going in both directions, chances are that you are measuring maximum or minimum wave superposition values, or anything in between, which will only teach you to dedicate your time and energy to other aspects of the engine.

    It is surprising how there does not seem to be very much difference in the induction and port timings between small engines and the bike gokart engines.
    Engine size does not figure in resonance phasing. The MB40 engine has 190°/130° timing, like you would expect from any decent two-stroke.

    I don't recall the rotary inlet timing of the hollow crankshaft shown below but it will probably be something like 140°/60°. That may seem tame and it is; this is not a high-revving engine . It doesn't exceed 35000 rpm and then the mean piston speed is only 23 m/s. Compare that to 26,3 m/s for an Aprilia RSA (or 54 m/s for a Ryger).
    Anyway, I feel that this kind of shaft rotary inlet for model engines is a fashion thing more than anything else; I wouldn't be surprised if simple piston port induction would perform better (it would certainly flow better).
    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #18604
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    12th March 2011 - 02:31
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    On a tangent,Wobbly is there a modern 250 or 300cc cylinder you would prefer for a supermoto or motard?
    Looking to apply as much of what you,Frits and others have graciously shared.

  5. #18605
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    Having any sort of working press fit in a flywheel that has ANY hole only 3mm from the circumference is simply asking for failure to occur.
    Simple rule of thumb for this is that TWICE that is needed.
    All that occurs with insufficient material is that if the core of the wheel is still under say RC40 hardness the hole will elongate outward to the wheels circumference
    and the press fit goes away - if the core is any harder the material will split outward from the hole.
    Several USA tuning firms have done stroker cranks for Jetskis with only 4mm and they explode continually, even with only intermittent use as in Freestyling.
    They botched the problem by welding them initially, but later they got a bit cleverer and made eccentric pins,and welded those - still a dumb solution.
    It is FAR better to have a light fit in your Mallory and tig melt a couple of small arcs of weld for retaining it, than having to use any excessive press that automatically creates a stress concentration.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  6. #18606
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    I have never measured them but the best looking 250 cylinders I have seen are a GasGas and an older TM250MX
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  7. #18607
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    wob i havent got to engmod yet but i almost have the sides back on. it wont win any beauty awards but if it holds water ill be happy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #18608
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    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    Dunelt.

    No crankcase.
    High transfers.
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    Oyster used to have one.
    I have Pm' ed him for some info

    I have thrown in a pic of the SPX piston single piston
    Click image for larger version. 

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    1,171,767. Two-stroke engines. B. HOOPER and J.E. FAVILL. March 3, 1967 [Dec.4, 1965], No.51564/65. Heading F1B. The pump part 15 of a stepped-piston twostroke engine forces the charge on the upstroke through port 32, controlled by a recess in the piston, into a receiver 30. Near the bottom of the piston downstroke, the top of the working part 14 of the piston re-opens port 32 to allow the charge to flow from the receiver 30 into the cylinder for scavenging and charging. The inlet passage 21 of the pump portion 15 is connected to a carburetter and contains reed valves 22 or a cam-actuated valve. The receiver 30 may comprise more than one chamber and the total volume of the receiver is at least three times the pump swept volume. In a multi-cylinder engine one receiver space 30 may serve two adjacent cylinders.
    Hi John,

    Might be an idea to go to the attached link and printing a copy of the front page of GB Patent # 1171767

    The extract is from one of the patents that my colleague and I invented, is shown on the link. This is a two stroke engine with the induction process and the working chamber separated completely from the lubrication process. The lubrication to the piston is dependant upon piston ring technology as present four stroke engines thus preventing lubricating oil being part of the combustion process..

    This is the single cylinder version which was derived from our original multi-cylinder version which foillowed the principle that with a two stroke engine it is essential to separate the working part from the lubrication system. The multi cylinder is more obvious in that one pumping chamber transfers into the adjacent working chamber.
    This single cylinder version is less obvious but follow through with this description of the cycle.

    As the piston moves down air or an air fuel mixture is pulled into the chamber with the larger diameter of the "stepped-piston" then on the up-stroke is transferred into the side reciever volume as the piston moves towards TDC. Then as the piston moves down again through side ports in the cylinder the charge contained in the receiver is transferreds to the cylinder volume above the smaller diameter of the piston. As the piston moves back towards TDC the charge is compressed to be followed by ignition.

    The drawing on the patent indicate the working volume is identical to the pumping volume as is the receiver volume. So if one uses logical reasoning we have the following.

    One volume is pumped into one volume and expected to be transferred into one volume. How can that work?

    When we invented the engine we argued with ourselves that the engine could not possibly work yet our instinct said it would. Calculations could not prove one way or another but we submitted the patent application on the assumption that our instinct, as engine designers, was correct. The only way to prove it one way or another was to build a prototype. We did it on a shoestring as Bernard and I were self employed designing all kinds of things such as ice cream cone manufacturing machines ( I kid you not) other than engines to earn money, and in our spare time we designed engines in accordance with our thinking. I made all the necessary wood patterns, mainly from chipboard, at home. We had the castings made and the machining done and paid for. We "borrowed" certain parts from Villiers which had been taken over during our time self employed, and had become Norton-Villiers. When we finally had all the parts I assembled this prototype engine on the kitchen table at Bernard's house. This was a prototype single cylinder engine with a capacity of 150ccs and we had made twin reciever volumes from standard air cylinders with sealed movable by hand pistons , like large bicycle pumps, each 10 times the swept volume of the single cylinder engine. When ready we took this strange looking engine into the back garden, placed the engine on a concrete slab, wound a length of cord around the crankshaft pulley and then, making sure we had petrol getting to the carburettor, I pulled the cord and although the engine turned over, nothing happened. So I wound the cord around the pulley again then pulled again. The engine started and ran. We all danced around the garden as our instinct had proved to be correct, although we still had no idea why it worked.

    We had been invited to cease being self employed and begin an Advanced Development department at Norton-Villiers by the new managing director of the new company based on a recommendation by the Managing Director of Cotton Motorcycles, Monty Denley, and the raft of patents we now had on new engine designs. The idea was that we would work on these new ideas of ours with the object of Norton-Villers producing the results of our research under royalty agreements. We duly returned to the Villiers factory where we had left some 12 months previously and began working on our single cylinder engine. Our work led us to discover the capability and the potential of our engine although we never managed to develop the theory of why it worked. We realized that in some way gas dynamics played a part, but we never did discover how they did. We found as we increased the reciever volume the power ouput of the engine increased. We gradually increased the reciever volume until we reached a volume of 5 imperial gallons, as we would utilize any suitable container in our experiments. So by using a 5 gallon container we were pumping a volume of 150ccs into a volume of 22730 ccs which then was transferred back into 150ccs of the working chamber of the engine.
    Everything was going well until the 5 gallon container of gasoline/air mix exploded. Luckily although we were standing close to the engine controlling the Heenan and Froude dynamometer and parts flew everywhere bedding themselves in the noise reducing wall tiles, all the parts missed us. We had realized this was a possibility but the experiment was all important and finding the limit of the reciever volume was our aim. With air only and injecting the fuel into the combustion chamber was the solution and we knew that was the way to go. But events took over.

    We wanted to made a prototype diesel engine version and experiment with increasing the ratio of working volume to pumping volume. And all manner of ideas, but the gods had different plans for us. Norton-Villiers had taken over the bancrupt AMC company that made Norton, Matchless and AJS motorcycles. AMC management had stated they had a new motorcycle engine all ready to be put into production and painted a rosy picture. The truth was totally different.
    The engine was a terrible design so the new owners of Norton-Villiers needed a new motorcycle to replace the antiquated products. Bernard and I were approached by the Managing Director who had invited us to join the new company, and asked us if we would cease our work on our engines, form a design team that would have the task of designing a practical new motorcycle as otherwise there was no future for the company.

    The end result was the Norton Commando, the prototype of which we did in three months.

    When the dust has settled and the Commando was a success Norton-Villiers turned to thoughts of new future products. The company produced one of our engine designs in accordance with Hooper-Favill patents and production began. This engine was called the "Vertex". A verticle shaft lawnmower engine with a capacity of 150ccs, a two stroke but with differences defined by our patent. I have a brochure somewhere that state the engine is in accordance with Hooper-Favill Patents The company also approached the National Research Development Corporation ( NRDC) and an agreement for financial support was reached for a new motorcycle design using Hooper-Favill patents for the multi cylinder stepped piston engine. This came all too late to reach production as before development was finalized and the company ceased trading, which is long sad story in itself. The prototype motorcycle called the "WULF" is now in the British Motorcycle Museum in Birmingham.

    My colleague and myself the re-formed our design and development company, rented test facilities and office space and continued our engine design consultancy. We continued development of our stepped piston engines and when the manufacturing machine tools and assembly line for the Vertex engine was purchased by a mower manufacturing company we became consultants to the company on the production and engineering side under conditions defined under a royalty agreement. The company was Mountfield Mowers of Maidenhead in Berks.

    In 1978 I visited the US in an attempt to interest Briggs and Stratton and Harley-Davidson in our engine designs. This visit was done with the support of the NRDC and the end result was that Briggs were not interested in our engine ideas and neither was Harley-Davidson but Harley made an offer I couldn't refuse and because of numerous reasons I finally agreed to join Harley and my colleague and myself parted ways although we remained friends and through my efforts I was able to get three design contracts, two from Harley and one from another Wisconsin company for design work to be done by Bernard. Bernard continued with the design and development for many years and I always met with him during my visits to England. This ended suddenly when during a visit to England I had arranged to meet with him together with an ex Norton-Villiers colleague and we were to have lunch together. Our ex-colleague met me at our agreed meeting location with the sad news that Bernard had died suddenly.

    So now to comments about the engine as part of the Deltic.

    The need is to separate the power developing bit from the bit that need lubrication. The use of Stepped pistons would provide the answer. I have doubts about the use of the long con-rod for the second piston and I would guess it brings problems unique to it's use. Gear , chain or toothed belt might be worth looking at . Using stepped pistons, fuel injection and the uniflow two stroke design would produce a very light engine and using a single reciever for both pistons would be easy to do although work on gas dynamics would be necessary. The crank support bearings, big and small end etc. could be lubricated in the traditional manner as a four stroke engines and lubrication of the piston, both diameters would follow four stroke practice with compression, oil control and scraper ring technology. Any liquid fuel that could be injected into the combustion chamber could be made to work but the most efficient would be a using a diesel cycle.


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    another variation on stepped pistons
    http://patentimages.storage.googleap...S5797359-1.png
    http://www.google.com/patents/US5797359



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  9. #18609
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    The dunelt I race is a sturmey archer 4 stroke. I do have a dunelt 250cc 2 stoke though, it has the double diameter piston giving the "supercharging". Around 1925 dunelt ran a 500cc like this at the IOM. It was a sidecar, prob needed to carry the huge amount of fuel!!!

  10. #18610
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyster View Post
    The dunelt I race is a sturmey archer 4 stroke. I do have a dunelt 250cc 2 stoke though, it has the double diameter piston giving the "supercharging". Around 1925 dunelt ran a 500cc like this at the IOM. It was a sidecar, prob needed to carry the huge amount of fuel!!!
    Do you have any pictures of the internals of the Two Stroke Pete?

    They used to run advertising with a little gimic of Professor Supercharge.
    I will add some scans later




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  11. #18611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Because it's the cheapo solution. The crankshaft shown in my previous post is from the Honda RS250 production racer. The crank webs are forgings with the material distributed correctly for balancing. But that would leave a clobbered external shape, so a tin cover is pressed around the lot.
    The crankshaft below is from the NSR500. That was a works racer; no tins there...
    Attachment 313758
    Cranks with 'tins', are they able to be rebuilt without destroying the tins?
    Is it false economy to try rebuild one of these types or cranks?

    Sorry for the newbie questions, someone has to ask don't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    So here it is as simple as can it be made - NO STEP IS BEST - but this does NOT mean grind the duct to make it round OR bigger in any way....
    Wobbly, I've been binging on the ESE thread again and only just realized how many times you have reiterated this point and the 75% triple, 90% single rule of thumb. In fact I found a mention of it back in 2011 of the ESE thread from yourself. Sorry for asking AGAIN instead of searching the thread. Always appreciate the time you all put into this thread, it's the best!

  12. #18612
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    Ken Oconnor racing has a good video on rebuilding tin can cranks,he cuts the rod and pin in half for easy removal..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs5Au5rrlUw

  13. #18613
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    The Honda 2 stroke has made it to Gizmag, a really good broad technology site with 6 to 10 new things daily. Of course, not as good as kiwibiker though.

    See http://www.gizmag.com/ and the feature is dated 19 July.
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  14. #18614
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    Does anyone here know of a source for round bar in 300M steel or E4340AQ steel, something bigger than 16mm diameter
    so I can have a go at making some steel rods. I am after like a 1m length or what ever they will sell, as long as I don't have to buy a mill run.
    Thanks
    Neil

  15. #18615
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    Thank Wob,I'll see what I can dig up on them.Thanks again bucketeers.

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