ESE's works engine tuner

[husaberg]

husaberg i tried to add more material than i thought i would need so i could grind it down to a desired shape. after looking at the photo i think i understand where i went wrong. like the rsa photo i should start the oval to round transition inside the exh port so the transition will be less extreme. maybe more like this updated photo

Yes that's more like it. The top of the EX port follows exactly the shape and height of the Port at the cylinder entrance. It just exits downwards following the same 30 degree odd degree slope.
The bottom of the port changes shape curving down near the exit from the flatter profile close to the exit. (I assume to keep the duct volume to the minimum.)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130807666
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130810198


below click on the arrow after husaberg

Here some pics (attached)if that helps, its no RSA of course. They I believe had a CNC finished Duct.

[peewee]

in engmod it asks for the effective diam of the intake manifold at the point it enters the reed block. ive always assumed this to meen the equivalent diam as my manifold is a rectangle at the point it enters the reed block. in the past ive just used a computer program to convert the rectangle to a equivalent circle diam. ill assume i need to do the same with the exh exit. convert the oval to a equivalent round diam ?

[teriks]

In our initial testing this was the case. But my son managed to create a method of recording the resistance in real time to 4 or 5 decimal places . He can record in enough detail, that on every cycle we see what is happening in that cylinder. So he can measure engine rpm over any 6 to 10 cycles and be within 60 rpm of what the digital tacho shows. Although delayed in time , there is still thermal cycling . We can see this up to 32k rpm, we have not yet tested it at higher RPM yet. Other things that have been seen is lean of peak in a cylinder, where rpm remains the same , but the temp drops a very small amount. With glow engines, if the load changes or if you go just a fraction leaner, the temp just rises, and then the engine slows. I think it slows as there is insufficient energy to keep the power to the required level. Then rapidly heats with dramatic slowing. So he is working on a system that keeps it to the rich of peak without being confused with the lean of peak from the programming. There is a hall effect sensor to detect direct crank rpm and is the reference for tdc with an allowance for the lag time of the electronics. It also takes into account pipe pressure average and how that is interrelated to the in cylinder temp and mixture position. I will ask my son for a picture of the glow wire graph in the cylinder if he will let me and post when I can to show you. Neil

I would love to see that, and anything youd like to share.

The temperature vs AFR I need some time to digest before saying anything..

[Lef16]

Hey guys,
I don't remember if this has been talked before but as I remember it hasn't.
Im thinking of buying a knock-deto sensor.I've just finished a bike with ~14.1 full stroke CR and it will work with simple 95 pump fuel.
As long as I can't set the advance curve on a dyno I thought that using a knock senor is a good idea.
My question is,will a simple knock sensor from a production car work?I want to connect it with a shift light...what else do I need?
I think that it can be connected to Ignitech but I need a signal tranformer.
And if someone has done it,any help on setting and meause right servo with drum type PV will be appreciated
Cheers

[Muciek]

Hey guys,
I don't remember if this has been talked before but as I remember it hasn't.
Im thinking of buying a knock-deto sensor.I've just finished a bike with ~14.1 full stroke CR and it will work with simple 95 pump fuel.
As long as I can't set the advance curve on a dyno I thought that using a knock senor is a good idea.
My question is,will a simple knock sensor from a production car work?I want to connect it with a shift light...what else do I need?
I think that it can be connected to Ignitech but I need a signal tranformer.
And if someone has done it,any help on setting and meause right servo with drum type PV will be appreciated
Cheers

Knock sensor,
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130299961

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130489628 Talk about setting servos.

[adegnes]

Page 600 has lots of info on the ebay knock gauge.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130392745

[husaberg]

Cameron article on Detonation
http://www.klemmvintage.com/camerondeto.htm

The 3 pole ones have 3 wires so dont know how these would be connected.
Most are 2 wire and are common to most late model cars, Audi, VW ,BMW, Subi etc, the plug is standard injector type.
Easiest is the one with 8mm hole thru the middle, they are rugged as hell, so rarely bust, whip down to wrecker and get one for jack shit with the plug connected.

As I said before the knockgauge that works with the Ignitech has an analogue output to ground.
When it detects deto it grounds an Ignitech input that is programmed to retard.
You can watch the lights and then manually take out timing to stop the deto, but the retard circuit of the knockgauge/Ignitech pulls out the timing
so quickly you may well miss this indication.
So I disable the retard initially to see where the advance curve needs to be changed, then reconnect it.
In this case the gauge is a failsafe.

See the pic above of the RSA - the Bosch deto sensor with 8mm hole is bolted to a head stud - that Thiel character was /is no idiot.

Using the det sensor with lights makes it dead easy to shape the curve to suit the engine, you dont need a brake at all.
You can dyno load cycle the engine as fast as you like, and for the short period it may deto, in a small band of rpm - the lights go off like a Xmas tree.
Takes a bit of fiddling with sensitivity to get in the ballpark and read actual deto - not normal noise, as the det frequency is
determined by the bore diameter.
Just make sure the M8 bolt thru the Bosch sensor is tightly fixed to the head or case, with no washers to crush etc.
Data logging the sensor output against rpm is the trick way to go, but simply watching the revcounter and the lights to see where deto is happening during a pull, is easy.
Works just like the deto warning when running EngMod - see the warning and fix the excess advance before a rod comes thru your screen, your choice.

In this case we are dealing with an aircooled scenario - remember two things here, Avgas loves com to make power, and the pipe loves retard to get heat for revon power.
Whenever you have high com or lots of advance a larger % of the heat of combustion is directed out from the chamber into the finning, via mainly the ring contact with
the bore, reduce either or both and more heat ends up in the pipe, making it appear shorter due to the increased wave speed..
Thus when you are thermally limited by the finnings capability to reject heat, you must reduce the heat input by limiting the com.
This then means more heat is available in the pipe, so more power can then be made by upping the advance - just another balancing act.
Its a Catch 22 when there is high dynamic com - ie, when the engine is on the pipe,there is danger lurking, but below that point - the cylinder filling is so piss poor the only way to get good
throttle response off slow corners is to pile in plenty of advance - its safe as houses as there is very little effective com.
This engine has no powervalve so the cylinder filling efficiency comes on slowly, so you roll of the advance slowly, then pull it out quicker as the system starts to work well.
With a powervalve its the opposite - as soon as the valve starts to lift the efficiency increases dramatically, so the advance needs to be pulled out much quicker and sooner.
Any well set up race engine will love 28* below the pipe when running Avgas.

In one of the World Champ skis I did we had 35* of mid advance, as the only time it was in that band was at full throttle from a standing start.
It would jump real hard using that advance to generate cylinder pressure - but troll around on part throttle at that rpm and it would kill the engine by loosening the barrel nuts with rampant deto.

Seems to be some confusion here.
The det sensor has to be connected to the knock gauge I posted the link to on here a while ago.
This has the filter on board as well as led indication.
And if you buy the option of a current sink to ground wire it will drive the retard input on an Ignitech, when deto is seen within the sensitivity range..
Yes any Ignitech input config is shown on the PC screen when it is grounded.

Knock sensor needs to pass through a tuneable band pass filter, seem to remember Jaycar sell a tuneable unit. Will see what I can find.

Yeah, I 'm with Kel; it's about frequency, not voltage amplitude. So, logically, there should be a Fourier transf circuitry and the band-pass filter - all either in physical or pc program form.
I believe it can be done if you know some electronics -and internet browsing-, but the result might not be worthy of the time spent.
The one Wob informed us about has a reasonable price, so why not?


edit :
I don't quite remember at the moment, but there must be some knock signal examples at the Labview website at NI. And some (a little more sophisticated) knock program examples in their forums.

I had the Jaycar page saved in my bookmarks, but it's seems to be no more: http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productView....k&form=KEYWORD
It must have been this one : http://www.rhinopower.org/knock/knock.html

Yep, easy to construct a 3D map with tps in the Ignitech by doing runs at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 throttle.
Or use the technology properly and use the deto sensor output as well to tell the ecu to retard at any time/rpm when the deto is happening , on the fly.

[ken seeber]

"He is producing the engines himself. And ever since the FIA-homologation was approved, he has been contacted by kart engine importers and dealers all over the world. The amounts they are ordering are astonishing."

If this is the case, there'll certainly be some sadness going around.

[wobbly]

Well if we all end up using the same Ryger engine then thats fine by me - still plenty of scope for "tuning " the things
exactly as we do now,once its on the dyno.
We need Vannick to get the thing modeled asap, so we can begin running sims to see where to go looking for power.

Re the question about the areas used in EngMod.
Yes , whatever shape is at the reed manifold face this needs to be converted to an equivalent circle.
In case you didnt understand, the last section of the intake is the length of the reed block.
But as this varies with petal height off the seat, use 2/3 of the length from the previous face to the tip.
The end diameter is the effective port exit area given to you in the reed analysis.

Then the same logic applies to the Ex duct exit, convert the area to an equivalent circle ( in fact you should be doing this the other way around,EngMod
tells you what the circle should be - you convert this to the oval with ears )
This is done in the Ex port page, but the oval to round transition is then specified as the first section of the pipe input.

[wobbly]

With the PV servo - first thing is to wire up the two circuits independently.
The 3 wires from the position sense pot should be in one plug, the 2 wires for power to the servo motor in another.
Thus when the system is up and running, you can unplug the power to the servo , but see on the screen the mV readings for your full up/full down positions.
Then this is easily programmed in with your own rpm inputs.
The system does a limits check on first powering up, so wind the PV down, then plug in the servo wires with the power to the ecu off.
Once you power up the ecu, it will cycle up and down, if you have the servo polarity wrong, or the pot polarity wrong it wont work.
So again its easy to swap the wires in 1 plug.

[Haufen]

Then the same logic applies to the Ex duct exit, convert the area to an equivalent circle ( in fact you should be doing this the other way around,EngMod
tells you what the circle should be - you convert this to the oval with ears )
This is done in the Ex port page, but the oval to round transition is then specified as the first section of the pipe input.

Wouldn't an oval without ears be better, flow wise? The RSA had ears, of course, but on the other hand, Jan did not complete the exhaust port optimization as he retired at that time. So maybe he would have tested that, at a later point.

[peewee]

i may be wrong here but if there were no ears at the exit , wouldnt the exh tunell need to be much longer so the aux tunells (ears) could merge into the main tunell at the the same gradual angle. thus relocating the manifold much farther down stream where the exh exit finally gets to a round shape. i wonder if the now much longer exh tunell would perform better or worse

[wobbly]

Wrong idea about the ears.
Quit thinking outside the box till you understand whats happening within it.

We have two completely separate regimes operating here, within the Ex duct.
The exit flow of the all important blowdown phase,and the second element, that of the "stored " slug of fuel/ air that is eventually partially returned to the cylinder.
By having the so called "ears" extend all the way down to the header interface we are promoting, as much as possible, the ability of the
blowdowns spent gases to exit the premises with as little hindrance as possible.
This is a proven FACT - take a world champ winning KZ10B engine with a sort of flattened oval exit ,and add the ears right down to the header.
Suddenly it makes shit loads more overev Hp, solely due to the reduction in residual pressure above the opening transfers at high rpm numbers.

Then we have the gradual reduction in the Ex ducts total volume.
This was started thanks to Mr Thiel, by lifting the floor at BDC, and then filling in the bottom corner rads to reduce A port short circuiting as well.
Then the CNC machined floor shape was changed to gradually reduce the total volume,and by inference the step depths.
This goes back to the same idea we now understand about transfer ducts - the flow into the cylinder , mostly at BDC, comes ONLY from the ducts,
not from the case itself.
Thus a small volume sitting in front of the piston is easier to keep cool, has a much increased average velocity into the header,and also is easier for
the return wave to accelerate back the other way ,into the fast closing Ex port.

There is another arrangement that has been hinted at, but I have never actually confirmed, is that Aprilia also extended the so called "ears " down into an oval header
shape, further promoting the all important blowdowns exit geometry.
Sure, Jan retired before he could be convinced by me, or his own intuitive cleverness that steps were a waste of time, but deleting the ears in a 3 port, na, ya dreaming.

[husaberg]

Wrong idea about the ears.
Quit thinking outside the box till you understand whats happening within it.

We have two completely separate regimes operating here, within the Ex duct.
The exit flow of the all important blowdown phase,and the second element, that of the "stored " slug of fuel/ air that is eventually partially returned to the cylinder.
By having the so called "ears" extend all the way down to the header interface we are promoting, as much as possible, the ability of the
blowdowns spent gases to exit the premises with as little hindrance as possible.
This is a proven FACT - take a world champ winning KZ10B engine with a sort of flattened oval exit ,and add the ears right down to the header.
Suddenly it makes shit loads more overev Hp, solely due to the reduction in residual pressure above the opening transfers at high rpm numbers.

Then we have the gradual reduction in the Ex ducts total volume.
This was started thanks to Mr Thiel, by lifting the floor at BDC, and then filling in the bottom corner rads to reduce A port short circuiting as well.
Then the CNC machined floor shape was changed to gradually reduce the total volume,and by inference the step depths.
This goes back to the same idea we now understand about transfer ducts - the flow into the cylinder , mostly at BDC, comes ONLY from the ducts,
not from the case itself.
Thus a small volume sitting in front of the piston is easier to keep cool, has a much increased average velocity into the header,and also is easier for
the return wave to accelerate back the other way ,into the fast closing Ex port.

There is another arrangement that has been hinted at, but I have never actually confirmed, is that Aprilia also extended the so called "ears " down into an oval header
shape, further promoting the all important blowdowns exit geometry.
Sure, Jan retired before he could be convinced by me, or his own intuitive cleverness that steps were a waste of time, but deleting the ears in a 3 port, na, ya dreaming.

If I can be bothered taking a pic side on I will add it here. but the raising of the main port entry actuality also straightens out the duct.
But intuitively by reading what you wrote and having seen a few pics and read some of Frits and Jans musings of late re the raising of the port and the steps.
I do wonder if the steps could be used to actually improve the oval to round transition by extending part of the stub round into a milled recess thus deceasing volume further.
pics to add.

[Flettner]

Wrong idea about the ears.
Quit thinking outside the box till you understand whats happening within it.

We have two completely separate regimes operating here, within the Ex duct.
The exit flow of the all important blowdown phase,and the second element, that of the "stored " slug of fuel/ air that is eventually partially returned to the cylinder.
By having the so called "ears" extend all the way down to the header interface we are promoting, as much as possible, the ability of the
blowdowns spent gases to exit the premises with as little hindrance as possible.
This is a proven FACT - take a world champ winning KZ10B engine with a sort of flattened oval exit ,and add the ears right down to the header.
Suddenly it makes shit loads more overev Hp, solely due to the reduction in residual pressure above the opening transfers at high rpm numbers.

Then we have the gradual reduction in the Ex ducts total volume.
This was started thanks to Mr Thiel, by lifting the floor at BDC, and then filling in the bottom corner rads to reduce A port short circuiting as well.
Then the CNC machined floor shape was changed to gradually reduce the total volume,and by inference the step depths.
This goes back to the same idea we now understand about transfer ducts - the flow into the cylinder , mostly at BDC, comes ONLY from the ducts,
not from the case itself.
Thus a small volume sitting in front of the piston is easier to keep cool, has a much increased average velocity into the header,and also is easier for
the return wave to accelerate back the other way ,into the fast closing Ex port.

There is another arrangement that has been hinted at, but I have never actually confirmed, is that Aprilia also extended the so called "ears " down into an oval header
shape, further promoting the all important blowdowns exit geometry.
Sure, Jan retired before he could be convinced by me, or his own intuitive cleverness that steps were a waste of time, but deleting the ears in a 3 port, na, ya dreaming.

Yar nah, who needs blow down? Ryger 17500rpm (207 BMEP) on single exhaust port