ESE's works engine tuner

[philou]

Hello,

extract from an article in the Italian journal mototecnica

What do you think ?

[Frits Overmars]

extract from an article in the Italian journal mototecnica. What do you think ?

I think that I'd like to see the wole article. Any chance of a link? Or a scan?

[husaberg]

I think that I'd like to see the wole article. Any chance of a link? Or a scan?

Sounds like some bugger stole my High Rear Transfer Concept.
Or came up with it first without giving me credit.

[philou]

I think that I'd like to see the wole article. Any chance of a link? Or a scan?

I have no other information than those found to link => http://forum.mitoclub.com/topic/9270...o-di-pressione

[Frits Overmars]

extract from an article in the Italian journal mototecnica (http://forum.mitoclub.com/topic/9270...o-di-pressione). What do you think ?

This comes from Mototecnica of March 2011 so I would not call it completely new.
In fact the idea is as old as Methuselah; it's exactly the same idea that Suzuki tried in their 50cc works racer of 1962. It had disappeared in 1963...

PS: Husa, did Suzuki ever give you credit for the idea?

[husaberg]

This comes from Mototecnica of March 2011 so I would not call it completely new.
In fact the idea is as old as Methuselah; it's exactly the same idea that Suzuki tried in their 50cc works racer of 1962. It had disappeared in 1963...

PS: Husa, did Suzuki ever give you credit for the idea?

NO nor any money Don't get me started on Suzuki Frits.

Don't worry I will be claiming the original idea of the Ryger was mine as soon as I figure out what it is

I see they missed the reed Valve though
I actually never realised the top of the port was quite that high on the Suzuki(neat pic.)

It was overheating the case... is that right? Or was the Powerband to narrow or both?
Look at that mag placement MZ would not have been ecstatic either.
It looks remarkably like an MZ.
I understand that why they changed the colour of the bikes to Green.

[Frits Overmars]

It was overheating the case... is that right? Or was the Powerband to narrow or both?

All of the above.

It looks remarkably like an MZ.

Are you playing dumb? Surely you have been around long enough to know the story of MZ works rider Ernst Degner who defected from the German Democratic Workers' Paradise to Japan (trip paid by Suzuki). There are several books about it; one that comes to mind is called "Stealing Speed".

I understand that why they changed the colour of the bikes to Green.

Are you implying that MZ choose the coloor of envy? It's the color of Saxonia. The pre-war DKW headquarters were in Szchopau in the heart of Saxonia, since 1922. After the war the company, or what was left of it after the Russians dragged away everything they thought they could use, was renamed to IFA, which carried the colour green, and subsequently, in 1952, to MZ.

[husaberg]

All of the above.

Are you playing dumb? Surely you have been around long enough to know the story of MZ works rider Ernst Degner who defected from the German Democratic Workers' Paradise to Japan (trip paid by Suzuki). There are several books about it; one that comes to mind is called "Stealing Speed".
Are you implying that MZ choose the coloor of Envy? MZs have always been green; it's the color of Saxonia. In fact green was the colour of DKW; their headquarter was in Schopau in the heart of Saxonia. After the war is was briefly renamed to IFA, and subsequently to MZ

Yeah, its not an act though. I posted some stuff Max Oxley I think done. edit its was mac Mcdarmid
I am pretty sure most around here would not have known about the colour change though.
But that engine engine looks so much like the MZ right down to the squared casings
I am not quite that old Frits to remember
I am well young enough to be your son. but Hugh Anderson has stayed at my parents and owes me a clutch lever. I never asked him about the Suzukis though.
I do know the Story of the defections from both accounts including some stuff from Degner, but I think as Walter did, that Honda had a hand in it as well.
From what I understand one of the engines also went to DR JOE.


I think Wobbly said he worked for him? any ideas if that is just a fable Wob?

Pretty sure the original ones were Blue and silver and later green.
Well according to this. When I find it
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130150906

It may not be true but he did interview him. all the old pics I have seen are black and white.


Anderson plus the 50 twin
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130127263
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130128384

[philou]

so there is no interest in sacrificing a cylinder to test

[Frits Overmars]

so there is no interest in sacrificing a cylinder to test

Of course there is. Don't just take our word for it; investigate! You'll learn (but don't start with your best cylinder).

[breezy]

Of course there is. Don't just take our word for it; investigate! You'll learn (but don't start with your best cylinder).

thats the way i do it.... the hard way

[adegnes]

Re the Ryger.

Why just one exhaust port?
- No room for multiples cause other, more inportant(!) holes are in the way?
- That one port is humongous and there are no piston ring, or the ring is the ring, forged in the flames of Mount Doom of Mordor?
- Piston time is slowed down during blowdown while the spent gases are kept @ normal time, no need for much area?
- longer down stroke than up stroke?
- only one exhaust port, but some of the transfers may have serious back flow issues, and just happen to be connected to the pipe?
- theres two sets of transfers and one shared exhaust, the engine has a spark plug below the piston to and fires two times for each cycle - the ping pong engine; now with more better!
- It runs on exhaust gas mixed with melted piston from deliberate runaway deto, one small port to keep the heat at critical levels, and to keep the melting piston from spilling out into the pipe all at once, the stinger nozzle is actually inside the port?
- the whole engine is an optical illusion hiding an efficient electric motor?
- all of the above?

Can't wait to see how simple it really is.
Hope that when it gets revealed it turns out to be just your average racing two stroke with the exhaust bridges removed and zero premix. Guess what, lubrication wasn't needed after all, and the ring didn't break from a 100% single port.

[Haufen]

Thanks for that interesting answer which gave me food for some thoughts (and more questions )

Wrong idea about the ears.
Quit thinking outside the box till you understand whats happening within it.

We have two completely separate regimes operating here, within the Ex duct.
The exit flow of the all important blowdown phase,and the second element, that of the "stored " slug of fuel/ air that is eventually partially returned to the cylinder.
By having the so called "ears" extend all the way down to the header interface we are promoting, as much as possible, the ability of the
blowdowns spent gases to exit the premises with as little hindrance as possible.
This is a proven FACT - take a world champ winning KZ10B engine with a sort of flattened oval exit ,and add the ears right down to the header.
Suddenly it makes shit loads more overev Hp, solely due to the reduction in residual pressure above the opening transfers at high rpm numbers.

Then we have the gradual reduction in the Ex ducts total volume.
This was started thanks to Mr Thiel, by lifting the floor at BDC, and then filling in the bottom corner rads to reduce A port short circuiting as well.
Then the CNC machined floor shape was changed to gradually reduce the total volume,and by inference the step depths.
This goes back to the same idea we now understand about transfer ducts - the flow into the cylinder , mostly at BDC, comes ONLY from the ducts,
not from the case itself.
Thus a small volume sitting in front of the piston is easier to keep cool, has a much increased average velocity into the header,and also is easier for
the return wave to accelerate back the other way ,into the fast closing Ex port.

There is another arrangement that has been hinted at, but I have never actually confirmed, is that Aprilia also extended the so called "ears " down into an oval header
shape, further promoting the all important blowdowns exit geometry.
Sure, Jan retired before he could be convinced by me, or his own intuitive cleverness that steps were a waste of time, but deleting the ears in a 3 port, na, ya dreaming.

Is this below the modification you are talking about, above?
If you take a section view of the exhaust port at the point where the the grinding of the ears inside the flange transition just ends, then there is an oval with no ears, too. So maybe this is not so much about the ears, but more something like the ratio between the with of the exhaust port and the width of the grinding for the sub exhaust ports (ears) in relation to the main port width and the distance from the liner, or something like that? Because even the most primitive triple exhaust port will have ears if you take a section view of it that is close enough to the bore.

My sim says there is an increase in Delivery Ratio with a reduction to 75% percent of the effective exhaust diameter at the outlet flange, and a slightly lower Trapping Efficiency. But as the increase in DR is dominant to the loss in TE, there is an increase in power. So do you think that there is a possibility for the suction to become too strong for the transfers to cope with and thus overscavenging the cylinder? This would mean that the 75% ratio would only be valid for high state of tune kind of transfer ports, and that the number would have to be revised to a larger number, eg 85%, for crappier transfer ports.

NO - the aux tunnels should be ground outward at the flange face, then smoothly transition into the round
exit of the spigot.
This pic is of a KZ2 kart cylinder, and the spigot is tapered on the OD, allowing the extended aux width.
The Aprilia is similar but as far as I know they never had a proper smooth transition within the spigot - all the
pics I have seen still had steps.

So the actual duct volume was increased and yet the overrev power increased tremendeously? And the scribed circle at the flange represents the flange exit diameter after the oval to round transition?
Do you happen to have the % numbers of the duct exit in relation to the exhaust area before and after the mod?

[breezy]

Frits, I guess you are right, there is more to this discovery than we might think. If this is what I think it is, then there will also be some VERY interested fourstroke customers, ones that might race in GP class! I can see why you NEED to keep a lid on it.

70bhp@ 125cc.......0.56bhp per 1cc... 900 cc =!!!

[breezy]

2 piston rings! Well that blows my theories out of the window.


Nah I got nothing, just wanted to appear like I was contributing.

one at the top of the piston ... one at the bottom? bottom one to raise pressure in the transfers to stop back flow down the transfer ports ??