ESE's works engine tuner

[Lightbulb]

Thanks for the info. I will compare the formulas given to the results I have and see what correlations are there with the 2.5cc engine pipe and the 6.5cc engine pipes.
Thanks again, Neil

[Muciek]

Since the advent of the 110cc 2T watercooled rule change, I have heard of at least three other 110's being built.

Here is the start of mine. 54mm bore x 48mm stroke for 109.9cc.

Attachment 314428

Step 1, fit a 11.5mm spacer plate between the GP's cases so that I can run a six speed TS125ER gearbox and clutch instead of the GP's original five speed.

Ok so You will run a 11,5mm spacer between cases,will You make some sort of stuffer into crankcase between crank webs (horseshoe shape)? Longer custom crank pin to accommodate wider spacing of the bearing in cases? Also wondering on web pins they are not too short?(space for seal and clutch sprocket) Cylinder looks great should be easy to apply some Wobbly and Frits & Jan magic into it

[AndreasL]

Wobbly

Sometime ago you said "...a cup of acetone in 5 liters...", do you mean one should add ~0,2l of aceton to 5 liters of ready premix? Or should the acetone be treated "as gas" when doing the calculations?

I know, no big difference, but I like to understand and know things. Even, or should I say especially, the small details. In the end they all add up.

Thanks!

[Peter1962]

I'm trying not to sound like a conspiracy theorist here.....but.....By any chance does the Board menber's company make the engines Harry R has used as the base for his product ?
I hasten to add i have no knowledge of who makes what - and who's up whom....

No, the Ryger is based on an existing 125cc VM. (which is a Chech company)

[adegnes]

Since the advent of the 110cc 2T watercooled rule change, I have heard of at least three other 110's being built.

Here is the start of mine. 54mm bore x 48mm stroke for 109.9cc.

Attachment 314428

Step 1, fit a 11.5mm spacer plate between the GP's cases so that I can run a six speed TS125ER gearbox and clutch instead of the GP's original five speed.

Attachment 314429

Step 2, a 115mm conrod. The crank used to have a 19mm big end pin. But now has a 22mm bigend offset 1mm to reduce the stroke to 48mm. And a Mallory metal counter weight plug.

Attachment 314431

Step 3, 117mm Rotary Valve.

Custom inner RV plate with KE175 rotary valve cover.

Attachment 314430

Step 4, Custom adapter plate for the rebored (renickosiled a while back) NSR cylinder.

Attachment 314427

Lots of lovely yummy ports for the watercooled, power valved, never fade all day cylinder.

A totaly in the spirit 110cc H2O, not much to it realy.

And hopefully it won't be to hard to convert this lot to a Ryger engine later, so could this be the start of the first 40+ hp bucket engine.......

Love it!

[F5 Dave]

Not quite sure how you'll work the crank bearings securely and accurately with the spacer plate in, but this alone will be your best mod yet I feel. 6 speed over 5 all day long.

Have you calculated the port timings with such a short stroke? The transfers will never fully open I'd suggest. And the exh floor will be quite low.

[Forgi]

Ryger Engine...

Everybody is just guessing but the most important questions hasn't been asked yet.

1 ex port! Why is it so strange? Maybe that 1 ex port is 100% wide or maybe they've just invented something and the ring on the piston isn't an ordinary one. Or It can be similar to a W port which is also one port. Or maybe the ring doesn't reach the exhaust port.

11 tr ports? If I'd like to put tr ports all around in the cylinder, 4 would be enough. So it has to be a special reason why there are 11. It can be a very special scavenging (ex. vortex), but according to the cylinder's appearance I think it's just the ordinary solution with 5 tr ports.

17k or 30k rpm? The safe piston mean-speed is just a simple rule. I suppose that noone has tried what could happen if a KZ engine or a 125 gp moto is set to 17K.

If I were Wob I have already put a about 600 mm length pipe on a KZ engine and I would examined its power at 17K. I think it would be above 60PS without any modification. What's more I'm sure it would be above 60PS, however it's another thing that at this point the STA values wouldn't be satisfying according to the current and generally accepted principals or mindsets. In my eyes 70HP at 17K doesn't seem so strange at all.

However it is still a mistery to me how is it possible to reach such a rev using a homologe KZ exhaust? I asked this before but it seems nobody cares except me.

I can't understand why didn't they publicated a dyno diagram without the need to saying a word about the engine. If they publicated such data (rpm, power) about the engine I can't understand what made them stop to show the data in papers. We are hearing about 100.000 euro confidental agreement but they haven't got a god damn 30 euro camera or a simple mobile to make a video. A video can't harm any top secret as it doesn't show anything about what is inside the engine. This way they could avoid all the critics and guessing.

Anyway I'm gonna wait for the homologation paper or a video or maybe some sound...but until that moment I take it as if it didn't exist.

Respect, F.

[TZ350]

Ok so You will run a 11,5mm spacer between cases,will You make some sort of stuffer into crankcase between crank webs (horseshoe shape)? Longer custom crank pin to accommodate wider spacing of the bearing in cases? Also wondering on web pins they are not too short?(space for seal and clutch sprocket)

No stuffers, I want the extra crankcase volume. See Frit's comments below.

.....give the pipe more crankcase volume to breathe from.....

you need a large crankcase volume. Ideally all of this volume should be situated in the transfer ducts. In real life you will also need to lodge part of this volume between crankshaft and piston, i.e: use a long con rod. Avoid nooks and crannies. Crankshafts should be small and smooth. Big end bearings must never be shrouded by recesses in the crank webs or by stuffers.

After Jan Thiel went into retirement in 2008, some geniuses at the factory grabbed their chance to 'correct' the errors that Jan left behind, without even testing the result because 'everybody knows the smaller the crankcase volume the better'. But they never could understand why a 2011 RSA125 was slower than a 2007 model (just look at the 125 cc top speeds on any GP-track). O, the joy of working with Italians.....

And Yes, a longer bigend pin, an RD400 pin might do it, with the longer pin the flywheels will be in their original positions relative to the cases. The six speed gearbox input shaft and drive sprocket all line up because the six speed cluster is 11.5mm wider than the original five speed. In the chassis the left chain side of the engine stays in its original place and the right side moves over 11.5mm, it looks easy enough to do.

Love it!

Thanks, I am a bit sad to be giving up on the aircooled project. But it just does not make sense to contine with a 125cc air cooled when I can have a 110cc H2O engine even if it has to be restricted by a 24mm carb, actually I don't think I will be much bothered by the 24mm carb rule because we have learnt a trick or two about getting air flow through a 24mm hole.

Not quite sure how you'll work the crank bearings securely and accurately with the spacer plate in, but this alone will be your best mod yet I feel. 6 speed over 5 all day long.

Have you calculated the port timings with such a short stroke? The transfers will never fully open I'd suggest. And the exh floor will be quite low.

The plan is to dowel everything together for alignment, then use double row self aligning phenolic caged ball races for the mains, we used these before in the Beast. Port timing may have to be corrected with a bit of Devcon and I am planning on fitting an exhaust port floor dam that is very nearly as high as the transfers.



The epoxy sealing around the Ex dam lasted quite well in the aircooled on the dyno and gave good results, so hopefully in a water cooled setup it will be Ok for an extended period of time on the track.

[Frits Overmars]

Ryger production is running in high gear in order to meet the CIK regulations.

[Flettner]

Ryger Engine...

Everybody is just guessing but the most important questions hasn't been asked yet.

1 ex port! Why is it so strange? Maybe that 1 ex port is 100% wide or maybe they've just invented something and the ring on the piston isn't an ordinary one. Or It can be similar to a W port which is also one port. Or maybe the ring doesn't reach the exhaust port.

11 tr ports? If I'd like to put tr ports all around in the cylinder, 4 would be enough. So it has to be a special reason why there are 11. It can be a very special scavenging (ex. vortex), but according to the cylinder's appearance I think it's just the ordinary solution with 5 tr ports.

17k or 30k rpm? The safe piston mean-speed is just a simple rule. I suppose that noone has tried what could happen if a KZ engine or a 125 gp moto is set to 17K.

If I were Wob I have already put a about 600 mm length pipe on a KZ engine and I would examined its power at 17K. I think it would be above 60PS without any modification. What's more I'm sure it would be above 60PS, however it's another thing that at this point the STA values wouldn't be satisfying according to the current and generally accepted principals or mindsets. In my eyes 70HP at 17K doesn't seem so strange at all.

However it is still a mistery to me how is it possible to reach such a rev using a homologe KZ exhaust? I asked this before but it seems nobody cares except me.

I can't understand why didn't they publicated a dyno diagram without the need to saying a word about the engine. If they publicated such data (rpm, power) about the engine I can't understand what made them stop to show the data in papers. We are hearing about 100.000 euro confidental agreement but they haven't got a god damn 30 euro camera or a simple mobile to make a video. A video can't harm any top secret as it doesn't show anything about what is inside the engine. This way they could avoid all the critics and guessing.

Anyway I'm gonna wait for the homologation paper or a video or maybe some sound...but until that moment I take it as if it didn't exist.

Respect, F.

Forget Ryger, forget homologation, the oil less aspect is real I can show that in a running example. The lack of fuel out the exhaust is also a reality with delayed port injection, also displayed in a running example (different engines) but the tech is out there now. 70 hp at 17500, well thats the problem, how? I have my "team" working on that now.

If the ring was retained so it could just stick out microns, to do the sealing job but not enough to catch in the port, you could have a huge "one" exhaust port. Remember the piston is not wearing against the bore any more. That would give a large exhaust port AREA. No oil carbon to cause the ring to stick.

Interesting times

[Flettner]

Ryger production is running in high gear in order to meet the CIK regulations.

Take the bits of paper out will you.

[wobbly]

We are already up against the reliability limitations of the crankshaft in a KZ2 engine.
The latest versions I have been building will spin to 15200 with good power, if needed, to eliminate several gearchanges per lap
depending upon the track.
If we do this say 3 times per lap for practice,3 heats, a pre final, then a final, then the big end cage will survive just one more meeting with the same abuse.
If its not changed then its all but guaranteed to fail,locking up and probably taking the cylinder with it.
These engines make 47+Hp at the sprocket at 13,000,and in my testing moving the power upward with a shorter pipe will just increase the overev
capability, not make any more peak.
I have machined 3mm off the spigot and 5mm off the face of the duct, as is allowable under the rules, and gained around 300 rpm of overev,no more peak
but lost 3 Hp down at 9000 - way too slow off the hairpin.
We are already blowdown limited, as if the Aux are made any bigger we loose way to much mid power, remember - no PV.
The KZ2 engine would not last a days racing if taken anywhere near 17,000 constantly - the Hp level is irrelevant.


Re the Acetone for oil mixing.
We would put 5L of fuel in the mixing can, add the Acetone, then the oil,but as you say it would make no difference either way.

[Moooools]

If the ring was retained so it could just stick out microns, to do the sealing job but not enough to catch in the port, you could have a huge "one" exhaust port. Remember the piston is not wearing against the bore any more. That would give a large exhaust port AREA. No oil carbon to cause the ring to stick.

Interesting times

Theory - The ring is retained in the bore instead of on the piston. The piston skirt is long enough such that part of it is always touching the ring, and the piston is nikasil plated. Could explain the need for the big spacer between cylinder and crankcase.

I can't quite work out if this is actually possible without the ring intersecting ports.

Edit: Obviously can be achieved without intersecting ports, but would have to be below all ports. It is not going to do any sort of sealing work down there so that would be stupid. I don't think this theory works.

[Flettner]

Ryger production is running in high gear in order to meet the CIK regulations.

Clearly Ryger are confident their engine will get homologation.

[Haufen]

If there's a 90mm rod in there, and there is a spacer plate needed, despite the short rod, then the compression height of the piston could be somewhat bigger than what we're used to in karting (barrel height looks about "normal" to me).