ESE's works engine tuner

[Frits Overmars]

I have a feeling one of the tricks of the Ryger is a tiny tiny "crankcase" volume (which will probably be called under piston volume from now on, or primary compression, because crankcase is now separate)

Primary compression will do fine, Jonny.

Good call adegnes. theres one on its way to me... had heard of people using the merc window washer motor and bottle. but the auxiliary coolant pump should be better.. thanks.

Intercooler pumps from turbo engines may be better still. And you'll find them at your local wrecker's.

[MotleyCrue]

TZ350 Thanks for the info and the better search info.

Blocking things off wasnt what I was thinking, in fact kind of the opposite, but I gather it runs that way so thats good to know.

Once in the powerband all that crankcase action is stuck in the way between the exhaust and the carb. Crankcase pumping alone can only move a percentage of the air that needs to be moved no matter how big or small the crankcase is.

[adegnes]

Thanks, Frits; I'll try it. I'll see if I can delete it here (Adegnes, I don't understand what you're trying to tell me).

What I ment was; Well said, I agree! And the "too short" part was because "word." was under ten characters thereby too short to be posted

[2005bully]

On the Ryger maybe its not high crankcase compression at all, maybe there is no crankcase compression. Firing off a 2 stroke with no crankcase compression is not a problem with just a simple addition, and running in the powerband with no crankcase compression is possible (24/7).

But idling with no crankcase compression and a normal 2 stroke exhaust I'm not sure that would work, I'm guessing it wouldn't, but I never tried it. I bet there is a way to do it though. More thought required.

That is what was described on page 1304 post#19551...

Maybe different verbiage would make it clearer??? The basics are like this....... Call it a Secondary chamber, stagnate crank case, Or what ever. The lower chamber connected to the transfer ports is nothing more than a passage that connects the transfer ports and reed cage together. NO communication with any part of the crankcase is present. The mixture starts moving out of the transfers into the cylinder aided by pipe suction, this suction is felt at the reed tips as a pressure differential. When this differential becomes lower than atmosphere the reeds open and admit the fresh mixture. At the end of each transfer cycle as the suction from the pipe becomes diminished, the velocity built up within the intake and transfer ports continue to keep the mixture flowing. That is the basic assumption... Low rpm torque would be quite low. But there is no doubt in my mind with the basic assumptions above it would run at very hi rpm's.


But how would it be started. Maybe with some type of temp. communication with the conventional crank case. Or maybe by the injection of a separate mixture supply, A one-way compression release in the head might be enough to get something moving. Especially if it were aided with a one way valve (pulse jet type) in the exhaust.

Years back we conducted an experiment where a stainless steel reed valve was placed at the end of the expansion chamber. The reasoning at the time was that any back flow of gasses that existed in the stinger area was creating pumping losses that had to be overcome by the next power pulse. It showed some promise but the material used for the reed petals was to short lived to get any hard data. But in a "velocity" 2 stroke as described above, there may be reason to expand on that concept.

Kermit Buller

[Flettner]

That is what was described on page 1304 post#19551...

Maybe different verbiage would make it clearer??? The basics are like this....... Call it a Secondary chamber, stagnate crank case, Or what ever. The lower chamber connected to the transfer ports is nothing more than a passage that connects the transfer ports and reed cage together. NO communication with any part of the crankcase is present. The mixture starts moving out of the transfers into the cylinder aided by pipe suction, this suction is felt at the reed tips as a pressure differential. When this differential becomes lower than atmosphere the reeds open and admit the fresh mixture. At the end of each transfer cycle as the suction from the pipe becomes diminished, the velocity built up within the intake and transfer ports continue to keep the mixture flowing. That is the basic assumption... Low rpm torque would be quite low. But there is no doubt in my mind with the basic assumptions above it would run at very hi rpm's.


But how would it be started. Maybe with some type of temp. communication with the conventional crank case. Or maybe by the injection of a separate mixture supply, A one-way compression release in the head might be enough to get something moving. Especially if it were aided with a one way valve (pulse jet type) in the exhaust.

Years back we conducted an experiment where a stainless steel reed valve was placed at the end of the expansion chamber. The reasoning at the time was that any back flow of gasses that existed in the stinger area was creating pumping losses that had to be overcome by the next power pulse. It showed some promise but the material used for the reed petals was to short lived to get any hard data. But in a "velocity" 2 stroke as described above, there may be reason to expand on that concept.

Kermit Buller

I did think that the video of the Ryger Kart engine running (poor quality sound!) sounded very loboured at low rev's, although it was hard to tell.

[MotleyCrue]

That is what was described on page 1304 post#19551...

Maybe different verbiage would make it clearer??? The basics are like this....... Call it a Secondary chamber, stagnate crank case, Or what ever. The lower chamber connected to the transfer ports is nothing more than a passage that connects the transfer ports and reed cage together. NO communication with any part of the crankcase is present. The mixture starts moving out of the transfers into the cylinder aided by pipe suction, this suction is felt at the reed tips as a pressure differential. When this differential becomes lower than atmosphere the reeds open and admit the fresh mixture. At the end of each transfer cycle as the suction from the pipe becomes diminished, the velocity built up within the intake and transfer ports continue to keep the mixture flowing. That is the basic assumption... Low rpm torque would be quite low. But there is no doubt in my mind with the basic assumptions above it would run at very hi rpm's.


But how would it be started. Maybe with some type of temp. communication with the conventional crank case. Or maybe by the injection of a separate mixture supply, A one-way compression release in the head might be enough to get something moving. Especially if it were aided with a one way valve (pulse jet type) in the exhaust.

Years back we conducted an experiment where a stainless steel reed valve was placed at the end of the expansion chamber. The reasoning at the time was that any back flow of gasses that existed in the stinger area was creating pumping losses that had to be overcome by the next power pulse. It showed some promise but the material used for the reed petals was to short lived to get any hard data. But in a "velocity" 2 stroke as described above, there may be reason to expand on that concept.

Kermit Buller

I like your idea but it wasnt quite what I was thinking of though.

There are any number of simple ways to start the engine, keeping it going without stalling would be my biggest worry. Once it stalls the whole thing is full of exhaust so there would have to be a way to push some air back into it for the restart.

[2005bully]

I did think that the video of the Ryger Kart engine running (poor quality sound!) sounded very loboured at low rev's, although it was hard to tell.

Yes...Another one of the clues. For sure we have not (and most likely won't) hit on the exact details employed by Mr. Ryger.

[MotleyCrue]

I tried the Google search method to find the Ryger video but no luck. Anyone have a link to the video ?

[Muciek]

https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9?fref=ts

Here
https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9...6265392136991/

[MotleyCrue]

https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9?fref=ts

Here
https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9...6265392136991/

Thanks.


A question for Frits. Once the patent info becomes publicly available, would it be easier for individuals to modify their existing engines to get just the power increase and ignore changes that are related to the other benefits (emissions, fuel economy), or do the emissions, fuel economy and power increase all have to go hand in hand ?

Certainly cleaning up 2 stroke emissions is a great thing, but with limited resources and almost certainly no Ryger kits for some engines, an individual might just be stuck with what they have already, but at least achieving the Ryger design power benefit would be something to look forward to for the near term, until suitable products with Ryger style engines become widely available.

[2005bully]

I like your idea but it wasnt quite what I was thinking of though.

There are any number of simple ways to start the engine, keeping it going without stalling would be my biggest worry. Once it stalls the whole thing is full of exhaust so there would have to be a way to push some air back into it for the restart.

Yes... But isn't stalled the same as not running. What such a motor needs to start or "not stall" is an method of initiating the pressure differential's, preferably at a low rpm. I agree there are any number of simple methods that could be employed, But one that does not adversely effect Hi rpm performance greatly complicates the simplicity. Maybe a solution exists in the employment of the other 5 or 6 ducts.
Kermit Buller

[Frits Overmars]

https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9...6265392136991/

That video was sh!t (but better cameras are on the way). The only thing you could clearly see were the protruding manhole covers in the middle of the road .
The remaining useful part of the asphalt becomes damn narrow at 20.000 rpm

... would it be easier for individuals to modify their existing engines to get just the power increase and ignore changes that are related to the other benefits (emissions, fuel economy), or do the emissions, fuel economy and power increase all have to go hand in hand ?

You will only get the power if you get the scavenging and the combustion right, and then the fuel economy and the emissions will come automatically.

[lodgernz]

Perhaps the primary compression chamber is quite small, much smaller in volume than the engine capacity, but still acting as a pump at low speeds to get enough gas in to run the thing until it gets on the pipe. Then the pipe takes over and the volume of the compression chamber becomes unimportant, as long as it can flow well enough to allow good filling.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well not exactly two stroke tuning, but some more footage of a two stroke taking on the field of 4 bangers.

Interesting to notice how when I catch up to Leigh Tidman on his RS450 (RS125 chassis with a YZF450 motor) how much he jumps off the turns. Unfortunately I had only just got my new rear wheel in the week prior to this race weekend and I didn't have a chance to get new sprockets that fit so had to run the bike totally over geared. Even though my peak power is near on 20hp more than the RS450, he is making the same amount of power from just off idle to max rpm. I was running from 2nd gear and just briefly into 5th at the end of the straight. Next time im going to gear it to use 3rd to 6th as the ratios are much closer. Maximum speed on the short Taupo track is only 170kph vs 210kph we usually see at Manfeild.

Feel free to critique away.

[MotleyCrue]

Yes... But isn't stalled the same as not running. What such a motor needs to start or "not stall" is an method of initiating the pressure differential's, preferably at a low rpm. I agree there are any number of simple methods that could be employed, But one that does not adversely effect Hi rpm performance greatly complicates the simplicity. Maybe a solution exists in the employment of the other 5 or 6 ducts.
Kermit Buller

I don't know that it would stall after starting.

Lots of engines stall, even 4 strokes, the difference here would be that if it did stall, the exhaust gas would have to be removed from the cylinder before restarting.

You could be right maybe simply having a couple transfers running from the crankcase would be enough to get the thing started, prevent stalling, and not really adversely affect hi rpm performance. I cant see needing 5 or 6 transfers just to get it started but maybe having 5 or 6 transfers from the crankcase helps the low to mid rpm.