ESE's works engine tuner

**SS90** · 18th February 2010, 23:12

Originally Posted by TZ350

So, if I show you mine, you will show me yours..

..........

I will be happy to look at the video of your results if you want, and the boys can bring a video camera along if they like. If my bike does anything exciting like catch fire or blow up they can put it on U-Tube.

A blowup or failure I am happy to laugh about, but if it goes real well on the dyno I might like to keep the exact results to myself as a suprise for Taupo...

....or the BOB

No,no It's not some morbid desire to see a failure, it's more that I would like to see/hear what your bike sounds like running up on the dyno.......I don't see the point in keeping your power figures secret.... either ya win, or ya don't,and this has been "quite well hyped" ( not in a negative sense)....

I am certain I am not the only one who wants to see a power graph/dyno run video

**Muzzab** · 19th February 2010, 07:28

I am certain I am not the only one who wants to see a power graph/dyno run video

[/QUOTE]

That's for sure, I have no idea what you guys are talking about most of the time, but you can't lead us on then not go all the way.

**bucketracer** · 19th February 2010, 11:00

Dad was out on a job so we had a bit of fun at lunch time, probably get our arses kicked later for fu..king around at work.

In the first moments of the clip you can see how easy it is to start from cold, and that there is no blow back from the carb.
The Magic Vacuum Cleaner 01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiEo8cgopg

Warming it up before a bit of a blurt up the drive.
The Magic Vacuum Cleaner 02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ef-WUO1Qs

**SS90** · 19th February 2010, 11:13

The second one wouldn't load, but the first one sounded alright!

**Muzzab** · 19th February 2010, 16:57

Good stuff!!

**SS90** · 19th February 2010, 21:28

Originally Posted by SS90

The second one wouldn't load, but the first one sounded alright!

The second one loads now, so what size main jet is it running now?

Teezee, can you post a few pictures of the entire system (with the cover removed), after the mods with the inlet tract length?

**Buckets4Me** · 20th February 2010, 11:03

Originally Posted by SS90

The second one loads now, so what size main jet is it running now?

Teezee, can you post a few pictures of the entire system (with the cover removed), after the mods with the inlet tract length?

it's just all open with a BIG bell mouth where the carb bolted to
look back a page or 2 and you will see it lying on the floor with the copers open
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...1&d=1265947716

**SS90** · 20th February 2010, 13:20

But, we can't see how Teezee managed to fix the resonance problem by simply extending the inlet tract by 30 odd mm........ it looks the same as it did when it went "Blarggghhhhh"...... etc........ can we see a few pics?

Personally, I am amazed such a small change (just over 30mm) made such a big difference....... so much so, that I would like to see a picture of the whole thing.....it just does not match to my experience............. I mean just over 3cm fixed all these problems.........

I'm sorry, I am skeptical, and I am not alone in this.........

Perhaps Teezee himself could enlighten us all.

**TZ350** · 20th February 2010, 14:24

Originally Posted by SS90

Personally, I am amazed such a small change (just over 30mm) made such a big difference....... can we see a few pics?......

I used a 4-stroke inlet tract, tuned length calculator that I also posted a link to on page 130, to get a ball park figure then halved it for use with a 2-stroke, to get a starting point.

It worked out that I had to add about 35mm to the original setup http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...0&d=1265947716 everything else is the same, no reed valve and the Keihin main jet is still 185. Should be able to post a new picture next week when I get back to work.

Yes its pretty stunning what a small difference can make...........

**TZ350** · 20th February 2010, 17:00

Originally Posted by SS90

But, we can't see how Teezee managed to fix the resonance problem by simply extending the inlet tract by 30 odd mm........ it looks the same as it did when it went "Blarggghhhhh"......

Personally, I am amazed such a small change (just over 30mm) made such a big difference....... so much so, that I would like to see a picture of the whole thing.....it just does not match to my experience............. I mean just over 3cm fixed all these problems.........

I'm sorry, I am skeptical, and I am not alone in this.........

Perhaps Teezee himself could enlighten us all.

Before the crankcase volume, the kinetic energy of the inlet gas column and inlet closing point wasn't in balance, now it is.

It all has to do with the balance between inlet tract length, inlet area, port closing point and the volume of the crankcase. It hinges around the kinetic energy of a column of air pushing into a chamber and compressing the air thats in there already.

The moving column compresses the chamber air like it is a spring until the increased pressure of the chamber air stops the moving column and then reverses it and then the compressed air in the chamber starts unwinding and pushes the column of air back out rapidly.

And in this way the air in the column shuttles back and forth, first filling and then compressing, and then being expelled again if the door has not been shut to keep it in.

In classical studies this activity is described by the Helmholtz’s Resonator http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jone...helmholtz.html.

But I find it easier to think of a large room, a door and a corridor filled with people rushing and pushing to get into the room. The room fills up and at some point the room will be packed to overflowing and some people will get pushed back into the corridor.

Causing a ripple effect back along the corridor to the entrance where some people will spill back out onto the pavement. Just like the air/fuel being ejected out of my carb during the blarrrs. So I needed to shut the door earlier or have a longer inlet tract to take advantage of the greater kinetic energy of the longer and therefore heavier moving column of air/fuel to pack the crank case for a bit longer before the rotary valve closed.

Its easy to see how having the weight of more people moving along a longer corridor will pack more people into the room and a wider corridor with a bigger door will do it more quickly and the greater weight of people in a longer corridor will pack the room more tightly. But whatever to get maximum room packing, the trick is to close the door before any people spill back out.

There will be a balance between the size of the room, the door, the corridor and the right time to close the door for maximum effect.

It’s the same for the crankcase volume, port area, inlet tract length and inlet port closing time, there is a balance point.

It’s a bit of a simplification but to do it justice it would take a lot of thoughtful writing that I don’t have the time or skills for.

And there has been a lot written about this already on the net and in books, mostly 4-stroke but with a little imagination and thought it can all be applied logically to 2-strokes.

So its all out there, and I have posted links to what I can find, you just have to go looking……and reading.....and thinking for yourself........and if you are so inclined, you can post links to any good bits you find for others to enjoy too, like I do.

As you can see from the video, your friends look like they are wrong or just havn't got there yet.

Unless they can explain why, don't listen to "nay sayers", negatives are two a penny especialy on the net.

Getting a plenum to work is about understanding and applying basic principles.

As you see, it can be done......

....so good luck with your own plenum project.

**Buckets4Me** · 20th February 2010, 21:03

Originally Posted by SS90

I'm sorry, I am skeptical, and I am not alone in this.........

HA HA HA now why am I not surprised

**SS90** · 21st February 2010, 01:19

Originally Posted by TZ350

Before the crankcase volume, the kinetic energy of the inlet gas column and inlet closing point wasn't in balance, now it is.

It all has to do with the balance between inlet tract length, inlet area, port closing point and the volume of the crankcase. It hinges around the kinetic energy of a column of air pushing into a chamber and compressing the air thats in there already.

The moving column compresses the chamber air like it is a spring until the increased pressure of the chamber air stops the moving column and then reverses it and then the compressed air in the chamber starts unwinding and pushes the column of air back out rapidly.

And in this way the air in the column shuttles back and forth, first filling and then compressing, and then being expelled again if the door has not been shut to keep it in.

In classical studies this activity is described by the Helmholtz’s Resonator http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jone...helmholtz.html.

But I find it easier to think of a large room, a door and a corridor filled with people rushing and pushing to get into the room. The room fills up and at some point the room will be packed to overflowing and some people will get pushed back into the corridor.

Causing a ripple effect back along the corridor to the entrance where some people will spill back out onto the pavement. Just like the air/fuel being ejected out of my carb during the blarrrs. So I needed to shut the door earlier or have a longer inlet tract to take advantage of the greater kinetic energy of the longer and therefore heavier moving column of air/fuel to pack the crank case for a bit longer before the rotary valve closed.

Its easy to see how having the weight of more people moving along a longer corridor will pack more people into the room and a wider corridor with a bigger door will do it more quickly and the greater weight of people in a longer corridor will pack the room more tightly. But whatever to get maximum room packing, the trick is to close the door before any people spill back out.

There will be a balance between the size of the room, the door, the corridor and the right time to close the door for maximum effect.

It’s the same for the crankcase volume, port area, inlet tract length and inlet port closing time, there is a balance point.

It’s a bit of a simplification but to do it justice it would take a lot of thoughtful writing that I don’t have the time or skills for.

And there has been a lot written about this already on the net and in books, mostly 4-stroke but with a little imagination and thought it can all be applied logically to 2-strokes.

So its all out there, and I have posted links to what I can find, you just have to go looking……and reading.....and thinking for yourself........and if you are so inclined, you can post links to any good bits you find for others to enjoy too, like I do.

As you can see from the video, your friends look like they are wrong or just havn't got there yet.

Unless they can explain why, don't listen to "nay sayers", negatives are two a penny especialy on the net.

Getting a plenum to work is about understanding and applying basic principles.

As you see, it can be done......

....so good luck with your own plenum project.

That is quite interesting, there is a bit of information available that uses the " Schluß Vekauf" pricipal.

I can't remember who wrote it, but it points out that, in the case of air acting in such a situation, like you say, it just compresses into that smaller volume, like, (for example) a bunch of women going through a door on a handbag sale.....normally, they would go through a narrow door, one at a time, but, when there is a sale on (Schluß Verkauf), somehow, they manage to get 5 through at a time, with no ill effect.

I'm not being a "ney sayer" here Teezee, far from it, I am just showing interest in your work, and sure, I am questioning certain aspects (I never said you had fitted a Reed Valve), that is how development is done, is it not.

I am not just going to read things on the web, and simply follow them in blind faith (I doubt you would either).

I appreciate you writing the last post, and I am familure with what you have written, but I still don't understand how only a 3cm longer inlet tract can balance out the pressure that occurs when the inlet disc closes, and you have (I don't know......3 Bar?....that's just a number, it's likely less) in the plenum, and 1 bar on the other side of the carb, leaving a 2 bar difference between the carb mouth, and the disc face....that pressure, with no check valve between it, has to go somewhere, and since the blow off valve is seating, it only leaves for the carb mouth.

"springyness" of air not withstanding, that "spring" has to uncoil, and if the disc is closed, the only other options are the blowoff valve (no) or the open carb mouth.

You say that the only change you made was to increase the inlet manifold by 35mm, is this 100% correct?, you didn't change anything else?

I have indicated my interest in this project (as have a few others on here), and your description/pictures of your plenum is just getting vague.

If you don't want to continue with your description of this part of the project, for competition reasons, that is your choice, but like I said, this has been well hyped, and there will be some dissapointment!

None of this is intended as a personal attack Teezee, like I say, I am simply interested in the real world viability of such a system, and I cannot see how a 3cm increase in manifold length rectified such a big resonance problem.

I found this after one google search......

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/pd...d/5410999.html

you will have to join, but it doesn't cost.

**Buckets4Me** · 21st February 2010, 06:09

Originally Posted by SS90

You say that the only change you made was to increase the inlet manifold by 35mm, is this 100% correct?, you didn't change anything else?

I dont think that the problem was all that bad ( or as bad as you thought maby ?)

the bike was drivable around the track just a little off at times

it got better and worse with jet changes but was always able to get it around the track

as for Hype I think that going from 14 odd HP to 22 in a year of development for Taupo is not so bad (who els has done that Woody ??)
and then building a bike that is different from anything out there is also due some Hype
specialy when it feels faster than the other bike

if he says it's a sucess then you can safley say thats it got more HP than an old Gn125 Ha ha.
The next lot of development will be on the frame and suspention (and new enginesfor Chambers and Nedkelly)

come to the track and have a look for yourself (everyone els can and dose)