ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

Page 1350 .....

With everyone talking up a storm speculating and guessing about the Ryger.

I thought we should celebrate the real work that has been done in back yard sheds with some useful links and interesting threads.

(Insert long sigh here) I hate, I hate to ask this, because I know I've seen the answer somewhere, questions about how to narrow down a KB search.

A thread with info about how to successfully find what you want on the Team ESE thread or any forum for that matter.

I was thinking this would be a good resource for everyone.

Lets everyone from around the country post up the lap record for there home track and who holds it. Other classes have them we should to.

Bucket Lap Records

I've been trying to collate a full list of NZ GP winners for a little while now.
It would be real cool if we can get a complete list together; so if you can add (or confirm winners, locations, conditions and even bikes) I'll amend the list.

GP Winners ... (my name appears three times in the list of GP podium finishers http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...e-list)/page3)

After reading some of the content in the ESE thread, I've become really inspired to take a closer look at hydroforming chambers.

Designing and manufacturing of exhaust pipes

The foundry or metal casting stuff thats been going on the the ESE thread really inspired me to get on with having a go at this stuff. If you can cast metal theres really not much you cant do. I dont think its going to be easy, most of it has been a bit of 2 steps forward 1 step back so far.

The Bucket Foundry.

Me and Bert will keep you up to date here with our projects
here is my bike i'v started . pic's of the swing arm build coming Attachment 264532gpr 100 twin/tf100

Team GPR

After 17 years. #6 is dead. Long live #6.

Speedpros interesting 125 twin turbo build and 30hp MB100.

There seems to be a resurgence in the 50cc ranks so I thought I would post up how I am going about mine (and Johns ).

The 50 ... Cotswold's very successful F5 build.

So I picked up an old Kawasaki KE125 for $55, its an old dual purpose machine supposedly developing 13.5 Hp at 7500 rpm, figured it could be a reasonable platform for a bucket mainly because of the rotary disk valve inlet.

KE125 ... Kel's magic F4 race bike build.

Well I've paid my monies so I'm committed (or should be). The plan is to resurrect my old 100 project that started 13 years ago.

A breif & depressing history;
At the time it was seriously ambitious & advanced for a bucket. The first RS transplant that I'm aware of (to be corrected I'm sure). People were starting to use RS forks & SW, so why not just run the whole thing? Procured a bike from T&E

F5 Daves's build.

Okay, so I was going to keep this quiet incase it turned into an epic fail, but i figured some of the jokers out there may find some interest into this.

I decided a while back that I quite like the idea of forced induction, I built a 250cc turbo bike as a bit of a laugh and it's great fun however not really suitable power for anything at all and as you could imagine trying to turbo a bike half the size wouldn't really work that well.

So the next option is supercharging.

Sketchy's supercharged project.

Between far to many other interests/passions, I'm a photographer and was part time freelancing for some years.
.

Chris C's great collection of action photos.

A few of us have these systems now. I thought it might be useful to have a thread to swap information.

Ecotrons Engine Management.

Bucket of the Month - September 2015- Glens H100.

Bucket of the Month - May 2015 - Junkyard Dog

'Junkyard Dog' is the apt name that this classic mut has been adorned with.
A true 'bucket build' this is a bike created from the best parts that have come to hand.

Bucket of the Month - March 2015 - Peter's FXR

Peter managed to pick up a basic FXR with a few goodie bits.

It was somewhat tatty when he got hold of it but he's fixed that in short order.

Bucket of the Month - February 2015 - Ken's Mudbug.

Ken's Mudbug has seen a long and sometimes painful development path.
It started in an RG250 frame, once he out-ran this he rehoused it in an NSR MC18 Frame.
Good thing he's an engineer and all-round whizz-kid on the tools as he adapted VFR front forks and an R6 Rear shock to run in the frame that came without such essential components.

December's Bucket of the month is Nick's 'Kawasuki'.

It's a Kawasaki ZXR250 rolling frame with a Suzuki FXR150 engine to power it.

Nick purchased the bike as a complete bucket but it has evolved steadily over the time he has been racing.

[JanBros]

Does the wet crankcase prevent the cylinders pointing downwards?

Not more than on any radial four-stroke engine. In short: No.

that seems like a normal simple answer, but if one puts some thought in it ...

in a "right side up" engine, when the engine is not running, the oil is just sitting in the crankcase, and when it's running, the oil is splashed everywhere by the crank/big end.

if we put the engine in the "upside down" position, and the engine is not running, the oil is where ?

* if crankcase and cylinders are effectivle sealed from each other by a seal (that would need to be arround the conrod), the oil would be on top of the seal and it would be about 50-60cc as Frits said
-> that might not be enough oil to be high enough so that the big end can splash it up, but off course one could put more oil in it.
-> it would make it almost 100% certain that the conrod only goes up and down, I don't see any other way of making a seal arround a traditional moving conrod.

* if there is no seal between crankcase and conrod, the oil would sit on/in the piston
-> start the engine and the piston will splash it through the crankcase, that would be ok
-> the crankcase needs to be sealed from the top end in one way or another as no oil can get into the combustion chamber for emission reason's. if you stop the engine, the oil from the crankcase will flow down from the walls in the direction of the piston/cylinder. not all will go into the upside down piston, oil will also go between cylinder and piston.
--> if the piston has "rings that apparently do not touch the piston", how can you stop the oil from getting past the piston and into the combustion chamber if you leave the engine not-running long enough or even while running ? that would not be ok. unless there is an ordinairy oil-seal arround the bottom of the piston : no combustion can get to it so that would be ok, but can it survive 30.000 rpm ?

I have problem's with both options : conrod only up and down doesn't correspond with the KISS principle, and the other keeping the oil out of the combustion chamber, unless Frits didn't think long enough before he answered crbbt's question, but that would be so un-Frits-like

[JanBros]

Irrespective, I am starting to think that the Ryger system is a form of direct air inlet system, and just used the below piston volume for starting and possibly some small contribution to the dampening of the piston downward piston inertia forces. The routing of the passages etc being necessary to route all the ingested air to pass thru the obligatory 30 carb.

but the 24/7 principle only works when the pipe is doing all the work. the Ryger makes it's max power only at 17.500 rpm. even with a very wide-range pipe, over how many rev's could it work ? even if it has a 10.000rpm range, you'd still need to get the engine to rev upto 7.500 before the pipe can make the engine sing and make it usable for kart-racing. drop below 7.500 during a race and you are standing still. and using the clutch to get going again, how many 7.500 rpm starts would the clutch survive ?

[Peiter]

janBros,

After scanning through the patent, I think it mentioned somewhere that the small end wrist pin was plugged. My guess is the that these plugs are so neat with the steppes piston its surface that the small end is actually able to travel up and down through the 'valve plate' seal. Then a slightly longer skirt on the stepped piston would be enough to seal the bottom end at all times from the top.

[WilDun]

You're in for a surprise then.

I won't be surprised, as I'm pretty sure it will be trendy for a time! - of course discussing it is very trendy at the moment and when it all comes out there will be a great rush of people wanting to try it, then it will all find its own level as the excitement dies down. So it will be added to the long list of two stroke developments over time, but again, it could bring the two strokes back (hopefully in the general sense, ie. not just in competition).
All subject to electric motor technology and turbine developments replacing piston engines and gearboxes I reckon!

But, as always, I could be wrong!

[d2t]

If anyone doesn't already know, there are places on the internet to see the complete published patent with all of the diagrams mentioned in the summary but I'll leave that for the crafty searchers. In retrospect, maybe I should've withheld posting any details a while for people to keep speculating as it was very entertaining to read some of the ideas here and gave me some serious contemplation on possibilities. Still, as Frits mentioned, there is a newer patent that is still pending so I wonder what mysteries it holds. Obviously, something substantial for it to reach such a high level of development regarding it's performance. All in due time I suppose.

As some of you may have noticed from the old patent, there are actually two variations of the valve spacer. One has tiny curved reeds around the bore, the other uses cams to vary the timing/valving of the incoming and outgoing charge. Of course, I don't know if fruitful development continued on both designs but I can only imagine the force driving the cams in the latter. There could possibly be several ways just as there are for exhaust valve technologies.

Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but does the Ryger still run premix maybe at a very low ratio? What keeps the parts lubricated outside of the sealed crankcase? Maybe that's what the piston ring holes are for? The patent makes no mention of ring type but I see it's a double set both at the upper and lower end of the piston.

Lastly, I still don't understand the 30K RPM claim. From my understanding, the principal change is from crankcase compression to under-piston compression. Although this allows for a sealed crankcase, there is still a lot of momentum in the piston (and also friction considering there's four rings). These may be all things that are still secret within the new design or just not called-out in the original patent publication. Maybe the original patent is nothing like the new design. Either way, sorry if I spoiled anyone's fun by sharing it. I'm sure there are still many mysteries to be revealed. Best wishes to "Mr. Ryger", Frits, or anyone else on the inside loop regarding development.

[tjbw]

I won't be surprised, as I'm pretty sure it will be trendy for a time! - of course discussing it is very trendy at the moment and when it all comes out there will be a great rush of people wanting to try it, then it will all find its own level as the excitement dies down. So it will be added to the long list of two stroke developments over time, but again, it could bring the two strokes back (hopefully in the general sense, ie. not just in competition).
All subject to electric motor technology and turbine developments replacing piston engines and gearboxes I reckon!

But, as always, I could be wrong!

The Ryger KZ engine uses Nicasil.

[ken seeber]

Ryger. Big picture thoughts.

If the engine has better fuel consumption and lower emissions, there are 3 things that could be fundamentally occurring, simultaneously or not:

1. That there is a mechanical or gas dynamic effect going on such that there is less fuel being (permanently) lost out the exhaust port.
2. That the combustion efficiency is so much better, such that even though a percentage of the fuel is lost out the exhaust, the greater thermal efficiency of combustion offsets this. This therefore leading to an improved BSFC, brake specific fuel consumption, which may be in the order of 280 gm/kW hr. Would just love to know this, even from the RSA would be good.
3. The friction levels have been reduced. I think Harry somewhere said “don’t let the ring touch the piston”. This gets the mind going as to all sorts of scenarios. Maybe the ring doesn’t do so much sliding = less friction? Maybe the ring isn’t a conventional ring and acts as a valve or initiates some valving function? Dunno. Remember that with a 90 rod, this will add to the friction compared to a 110 rod.

As to oil causing emissions. I am a bit of a non-believer of this. I agree that unburnt oil will cause smoke. I think I am pretty right in saying that, on a karting racetrack, there is tons of smoke during the roll up laps when the engine is well off tuned speed combined with shit carbs, leading to oil (and fuel) being dumped into the exhaust and accumulating in the crankcase and passages. This gives rise to both smoke and unburnt fuel, you can certainly smell this at the back of the pack. Then the race starts. Blue smoke everywhere. Then the race settles down, everyone’s going for it, and the smoke level virtually disappears. We’re still burning the oil, but no smoke. Ditto with GP bikes. Buckets?

The point is that if you see blue smoke, you are also seeing (but not seeing) the invisible unburnt fuel, coming out as unburnt hydrocarbons. Not good for the emission count nor the lungs. However, by disconnecting the lubrication of the lower end from the ingested or fuel, prevents smoke, but doesn’t necessarily reduce emissions. It must help though in reducing the areas where the fuel can hang up under off load conditions and then be subsequently released, as described above. Another way of saying this is that even if one ran a 20:1 fuel oil mix through the carb of the Ryger, it wouldn’t smoke nearly as bad as a conventional crank scavenged engine.

Back to part of the story. If there is less fuel being lost out the exhaust, then, for example, this could be achieved with fuel injection. However with no injection and the apparently standard exhaust & transfer port arrangement (Frits) when viewed from above @ BDC, then there must be something else going on, power for power. For me, there are two scenarios possibly going on, possibly overlapping:

a. That the fuel mix entry into the cylinder is lead by either air or combusted mixture (from the previous cycle). So, this can be lost to the exhaust with reduced emissions and improved fuel consumption.
b. That the fuel mix entry into the cylinder somehow occurs later in the transfer port open duration, thereby reducing the loss out the exhaust port.

Better go and do some (real) work.

[WilDun]

The Ryger KZ engine uses Nicasil.

Thanks, that was really all I was asking, ( but do you actually know that it's Nikasil and if so, is it actually necessary?) - to me it was a key question and the answer could tell me heaps!

[tjbw]

If anyone doesn't already know, there are places on the internet to see the complete published patent with all of the diagrams mentioned in the summary but I'll leave that for the crafty searchers. In retrospect, maybe I should've withheld posting any details a while for people to keep speculating as it was very entertaining to read some of the ideas here and gave me some serious contemplation on possibilities. Still, as Frits mentioned, there is a newer patent that is still pending so I wonder what mysteries it holds. Obviously, something substantial for it to reach such a high level of development regarding it's performance. All in due time I suppose.

As some of you may have noticed from the old patent, there are actually two variations of the valve spacer. One has tiny curved reeds around the bore, the other uses cams to vary the timing/valving of the incoming and outgoing charge. Of course, I don't know if fruitful development continued on both designs but I can only imagine the force driving the cams in the latter. There could possibly be several ways just as there are for exhaust valve technologies.

Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but does the Ryger still run premix maybe at a very low ratio? What keeps the parts lubricated outside of the sealed crankcase? Maybe that's what the piston ring holes are for? The patent makes no mention of ring type but I see it's a double set both at the upper and lower end of the piston.

Lastly, I still don't understand the 30K RPM claim. From my understanding, the principal change is from crankcase compression to under-piston compression. Although this allows for a sealed crankcase, there is still a lot of momentum in the piston (and also friction considering there's four rings). These may be all things that are still secret within the new design or just not called-out in the original patent publication. Maybe the original patent is nothing like the new design. Either way, sorry if I spoiled anyone's fun by sharing it. I'm sure there are still many mysteries to be revealed. Best wishes to "Mr. Ryger", Frits, or anyone else on the inside loop regarding development.

It's not "the .. patent" but an old patent as you say later, and it does not include the key to build a 70hp 125cc engine.

However I think the next patent will include claims for the input porting, including input to cylinder.

A cam to move cylinder relative to the piston could be used in addition to the valve plate, but I'd bet there is no such cam on the Ryger KZ engine.

Regarding the rings, how about one at the top of the piston, and none at the other end?

The little holes in the piston are for oil.

The 30k rpm is great for publicity, but wouldn't you want to limit revs, just in case?

I wonder how many red herrings we've had, HCCI, something about piston doesn't touch ring?

I think for 2017 CIK will have to introduce a new class just for the more powerful engines.

[tjbw]

Thanks, that was really all I was asking, ( but do you actually know that it's Nikasil and if so, is it actually necessary?) - to me it was a key question and the answer could tell me heaps!

Why would they spend money on Nikasil if they didn't see some gain?

These was some discussion on Nikasil on the pitlane forum which may interest you.

[WilDun]

Why would they spend money on Nikasil if they didn't see some gain?

These was some discussion on Nikasil on the pitlane forum which may interest you.

Are they still using Nikasil (or whatever) on the latest iteration of the Ryger?

[tjbw]

Ryger. Big picture thoughts.

If the engine has better fuel consumption and lower emissions, there are 3 things that could be fundamentally occurring, simultaneously or not:

1. That there is a mechanical or gas dynamic effect going on such that there is less fuel being (permanently) lost out the exhaust port.
2. That the combustion efficiency is so much better, such that even though a percentage of the fuel is lost out the exhaust, the greater thermal efficiency of combustion offsets this. This therefore leading to an improved BSFC, brake specific fuel consumption, which may be in the order of 280 gm/kW hr. Would just love to know this, even from the RSA would be good.
3. The friction levels have been reduced. I think Harry somewhere said “don’t let the ring touch the piston”. This gets the mind going as to all sorts of scenarios. Maybe the ring doesn’t do so much sliding = less friction? Maybe the ring isn’t a conventional ring and acts as a valve or initiates some valving function? Dunno. Remember that with a 90 rod, this will add to the friction compared to a 110 rod.

As to oil causing emissions. I am a bit of a non-believer of this. I agree that unburnt oil will cause smoke. I think I am pretty right in saying that, on a karting racetrack, there is tons of smoke during the roll up laps when the engine is well off tuned speed combined with shit carbs, leading to oil (and fuel) being dumped into the exhaust and accumulating in the crankcase and passages. This gives rise to both smoke and unburnt fuel, you can certainly smell this at the back of the pack. Then the race starts. Blue smoke everywhere. Then the race settles down, everyone’s going for it, and the smoke level virtually disappears. We’re still burning the oil, but no smoke. Ditto with GP bikes. Buckets?

The point is that if you see blue smoke, you are also seeing (but not seeing) the invisible unburnt fuel, coming out as unburnt hydrocarbons. Not good for the emission count nor the lungs. However, by disconnecting the lubrication of the lower end from the ingested or fuel, prevents smoke, but doesn’t necessarily reduce emissions. It must help though in reducing the areas where the fuel can hang up under off load conditions and then be subsequently released, as described above. Another way of saying this is that even if one ran a 20:1 fuel oil mix through the carb of the Ryger, it wouldn’t smoke nearly as bad as a conventional crank scavenged engine.

Back to part of the story. If there is less fuel being lost out the exhaust, then, for example, this could be achieved with fuel injection. However with no injection and the apparently standard exhaust & transfer port arrangement (Frits) when viewed from above @ BDC, then there must be something else going on, power for power. For me, there are two scenarios possibly going on, possibly overlapping:

a. That the fuel mix entry into the cylinder is lead by either air or combusted mixture (from the previous cycle). So, this can be lost to the exhaust with reduced emissions and improved fuel consumption.
b. That the fuel mix entry into the cylinder somehow occurs later in the transfer port open duration, thereby reducing the loss out the exhaust port.

Better go and do some (real) work.

Keeping the oil isolated in the crankcase, and no need to premix with the fuel is a big help.

I'd really love to see a Ryger design that wasn't constrained by CIK competition regulations.

They already have some expertise in the team for direct fuel injection and power valve.

[tjbw]

Are they still using Nikasil (or whatever) on the latest iteration of the Ryger?

The Ryger KZ engine uses Nikasil.

I wouldn't expect Ryger to spend any money on developing an alternative to Nikasil.

They need to reap the benefit of what they have already.

[WilDun]

The Ryger KZ engine uses Nikasil.
I wouldn't expect Ryger to spend any money on developing an alternative to Nikasil.

Nor would I!