ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

thought some people might be interested in these cylinders I am working on.

Good work, great to see the development as it progresses.

[peewee]

i think most people were only getting power somewhere in the 80's range with them cylinders on a +4 crank but i think i can do better. ill give it a hell of a shot anyways

[Lightbulb]

Thanks Ken and wobb for the input and thoughts.
We did a test today with a single hall effect sensor, and a micro data logger.
We used a 1 mhz timer,and a 64 mhz processor,writing to a micro sd card,
writing at 500kB/sec
The engine is a 2.5 cc Profi glow plug engine with a tuned pipe, on a bench run.
So the result was showing the engine running at 39100 rpm on a 100 cycle average.
However, looking at each individual cycle, there is a variation in some at only 30 rpm difference,
while others are at 400 rpm difference per cycle and oscillating up and down a little.
While some have a 400 change,then it seems stable for like about 6 or so then a big decline ,
then semi stable again, then another jump etc.
Is it possible that these variances are just due the nature of model glow plug engines and the inconsistency
of the very crude carb that it has.?

Here is a picture of the sort of thing I am talking about. This is during the what seemed to be a stable part of the run from a regular model optical tacho from the prop.
The second picture shows the starter turning over at about 6k then the glow plug driver is connected and showing the start of the engine itself.

[41juergen]

So I got a feedback from Martijn as well as from a colleague of Jan. Conclusion is for small displacements like the 50cc the plugs work for a racing setup, means some (low) risk that they may come loose during the race. But for bigger piston pins like in a 125cc cylinder they don't recommend to use these as they might fail. Frits can you confirm that?
So may be two other ways to do that:
a) Ken's proposal looks promising to me, would you share / sell these? :-)
b) weld some end caps onto the piston pin, may be via laser welding. But Martijn mentioned that the welding material is crucial (people reported the caps were falling off).
Juergen

[Frits Overmars]

for bigger piston pins like in a 125cc cylinder they don't recommend to use these as they might fail. Frits can you confirm that?

No I can't, and I don't remember either Martijn or Jan using 125 cc-size plugs.

...weld some end caps onto the piston pin, may be via laser welding.

Like the Pankl welded pins used by Aprilia, shown in my picture on page 1357. But they were hideously expensive; fitting and removing the clips wasn't easy, and they did not really form a closed piston surface.

[tjbw]

76 in the Honda case was just a co-incidence to do with the 52 degree v angle.
Irvings formula /Theory something I think to do with Max velocity of the other piston rather than just mid stroke. I posted an article way way back. A few Triumphs and so forth have been done at 76 degrees. The jury's out on whether its better or the same than a 90/270 set up, but its still far better than a 360 set up anyway.
I will see how good the Kiwibiker search function is and see if I can find it. (I did)Attachment 317050

That's a doc by Brian Whooley?

Here's "Vic Willoughby's view on 90° rephased crank": http://www.xs650.org.au/Technical%20Info/smoothness.htm

Some other info on that Yamaha XS650 club site, including http://www.xs650.org.au/Technical%20Info/vtwin.html (this may already be here on KB)
Also, http://www.xs650.org.au/Downloads/Downloads.htm simple engine vibration model (needs Java)

[lodgernz]

76 in the Honda case was just a co-incidence to do with the 52 degree v angle.
Irvings formula /Theory something I think to do with Max velocity of the other piston rather than just mid stroke. I posted an article way way back. A few Triumphs and so forth have been done at 76 degrees. The jury's out on whether its better or the same than a 90/270 set up, but its still far better than a 360 set up anyway.
I will see how good the Kiwibiker search function is and see if I can find it. (I did)Attachment 317050

Ah, that's right, thanks Husa. Irving's article was about parallel twins, not V-twins. Like George Bush, I "mis-remembered"...

[ken seeber]

Thanks Ken and wobb for the input and thoughts.
We did a test today with a single hall effect sensor, and a micro data logger.
We used a 1 mhz timer,and a 64 mhz processor,writing to a micro sd card,
writing at 500kB/sec

Neil,
Not sure what your plots indicate other than there are overall engine speed variations with time.
I was trying to make the point, and I think this is what you were alluding to, that over a crank cycle, the engine will not run at a constant speed, but it will speed up and slow down thru the cycle. This being the case, the port durations, whilst maintaining a constant number of degrees, will in fact vary in time, due to the cyclic speed variation.
A couple of numbers: At 39,000 rpm, the crank rotates 650 times per sec, ie a rotation takes 0.0015 sec.
If, as I suggested earlier, one had a 360 T encoder wheel and this signal was logged against time, one could have three (or more really) basic scenarios. (Note the 360T is a bit arbitrary, but something I am familiar with, and could be less (less accuracy) or more (more accuracy). I guess it somewhat depends on the capacity of your acquisition system.) See the attached sketch.



One can see, exaggerated, the different scenarios, and the effect on port durations. Could turn out to be ¾ of 5/8 of stuff all, but would be interesting to know. The key variable I think, being crank inertia.

[FastFred]

Spied at Team ESE Headquarters, the home of "The House of Speed" and other interesting Bucket racing stuff.

This soon to be a race bike was addressed awaiting pickup by Bike-Trans for delivery to another part of the country. Where its reported that the new owner is going to work some magic on it. 70cc turbocharged maybe.

[TZ350]

For those that want to try stroking their motor, you could have a custom pin made by Worb5 http://www.worb5.com/vespa_lambretta...n_fillcir.html

[husaberg]

Ah, that's right, thanks Husa. Irving's article was about parallel twins, not V-twins. Like George Bush, I "mis-remembered"...

A guy in Aussie built one into a triumph I guess that was what Brian Wolley was replying to. I don't have the article as its at my olds.
The 90 degree crank might be better but the 76 is still better than the 360 crank anyway.
reading the article it seems Irving's calculations made an assumption about the rod length being twice the stroke anyway.

That's a doc by Brian Whooley?

Here's "Vic Willoughby's view on 90° rephased crank": http://www.xs650.org.au/Technical%20Info/smoothness.htm

Some other info on that Yamaha XS650 club site, including http://www.xs650.org.au/Technical%20Info/vtwin.html (this may already be here on KB)
Also, http://www.xs650.org.au/Downloads/Downloads.htm simple engine vibration model (needs Java)

Yeah I linked a few somewhere
From memory it was a reply to and article where a guy had done a 76 degree crank where Irving theory was quoted by Woolley.

[richban]

Spied at Team ESE Headquarters, the home of "The House of Speed" and other interesting Bucket racing stuff.

This soon to be a race bike was addressed awaiting pickup by Bike-Trans for delivery to another part of the country. Where its reported that the new owner is going to work some magic on it. 70cc turbocharged maybe.

Hey what the what! That is my new secret 50 project. Well not really secret. Kindly picked up by TZ for me. Yes as I no longer own a 4 stroke bike my 2 stroke addiction is complete. A 50 A 125 and A 300. The plan for the 50 is hp. I really want to get stuck in and get it going well. Should be fun. I will start with a FOS pipe and simple mods and see where that leads me. What I am not sure about is the best exhaust duration for the 50. Anyway can't wait.

[Tim Ey]

For those that want to try stroking their motor, you could have a custom pin made by Worb5 http://www.worb5.com/vespa_lambretta...n_fillcir.html

I know two guys who made bad experiences with the worb5 excenter stuff...
both wanted to reduce stroke, but they mounted the excenter the wrong way...
If you buy them, dont let them fit your crank :-)

[41juergen]

Thank's for the feedback Frits.

So Ken would you sell us your idea?

[husaberg]

Thank's for the feedback Frits.

So Ken would you sell us your idea?

Howard Gifford Pitlane part two
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3173p740-gp...-part-2-locked

It is no secret what to use. DuPont makes a product called Vespel SP. I have used it and it works quite well at temperatures up to 500 degrees F and yes sir it is super expensive. SP-22 is the material of choice for pin plugs in that it has a thermal expansion rate that is identical to that of cast aluminum.
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Dernière édition par Howard Gifford le Jeu 10 Jan 2013 - 8:46, édité 1 fois

At the price DuPont charges for even a small sample piece I doubt you will sell much of it at a profit. If anyone wants any plugs made I can make a limited amount but at around $120.00 a plug I doubt anyone will be beating on my door with orders.
By the way I have a mint condition 1990 944 Turbo for sale Frits if your'e interested

Jan I will let you know how they stand up in a race situation. They seem quite good on the dyno but we do not do sustained runs on the dyno so I will find out shortly . I havent seen any big gains on the dyno either but with our auxillary exhaust communicatinbg with the transfewrs at tdc you would think that they can only help.
I tried machining two pieces out of aluminum that were bolted together by an allen screw. They had a locator pin and were curved on the belt sander to match the profile of the piston. They worked well also but they were heavier than I liked. The Vespel plugs weigh 4 grams each so weight is not a concern. I just wish I could give them a proper test on the track before I determine weather they are worth the bother.
Yes the cost is silly for the material and they are difficult to hold properly to machine so Im hoping they will become unnecessary. Especially since Frits promised to come to Canada to wring out some more «hp out of my motor.

This is his FB page
https://www.facebook.com/people/Giff...00004979745390



Jan Thiel Pitlane aluminium piston pin plugs

Yes, we tried that, and it worked.
First the pin was honed on the inside, and a piece of aluminium was pressed in.
The pin expanded a bit through the pressing-in.So we fitted smaller needles. Then it worked quite well, but it was a bit heavy.
We also tried magnesium, but that worked loose.
Then welding the pin was tried, that was lighter.
But sometimes there were reliability problems, the welded-on caps came loose.This caused massive engine failure.
Finally we had our pins made by Pankl in Austria. These were 100% reliable.

these guys I am pretty sure did the plastic ford engine.
http://www.solvay.com/en/media/press...Polimotor.html

Mr. Holtzberg’s efforts to change that can be traced at least to 1969. Reading a magazine article at the public library in Hackensack, N.J., he learned of a new plastic said to be tough enough to withstand the harsh conditions inside engines. He obtained a sample, made a piston with it and installed it in the engine of a friend’s Austin Mini.
The plastic piston lasted 20 minutes.

Mr. Holtzberg pressed on. During the 1970s, he made and sold plastic pistons — now with aluminum crowns to withstand the heat inside the cylinders — and connecting rods to racers. In 1979, he founded Polimotor — shorthand for polymer motor — to develop a plastic-intensive engine.

The first Polimotor, a clone of the Ford Pinto 2.3-liter 4-cylinder, used plastic for the block, piston skirts, connecting rods, oil pan and most of the cylinder head. Bore surfaces, piston crowns and combustion-chamber liners were iron or aluminum. The crankshaft and camshaft were standard metal components.

Shortly after Mr. Holtzberg’s first engine successfully ran, an article in Automotive Industries, a trade magazine, inquired, “What...a Plastic Engine?” Two years later, Popular Science featured a Polimotor on its cover. By then, Mr. Holtzberg had progressed to a second-generation 300-horsepower design weighing 152 pounds; a stock Pinto engine made 88 horsepower and weighed 415 pounds.

To prove that his plastic powerplant was durable, Mr. Holtzberg campaigned a Lola racecar in the International Motor Sports Association’s Camel Lights series. Amoco Chemical provided financial backing to promote its Torlon plastic resin. The only mishap during half-a-dozen 1984 and 1985 races was the failure of a connecting rod, a part purchased from an outside supplier.

In spite of his successes, Mr. Holtzberg roused little attention. “Ford was technically interested,” he recalled. “The Popular Science article gave them plenty of free publicity, but they actually contributed nothing to the Polimotor project.”

Read more: http://blogs.internetautoguide.com/6...#ixzz1vZ5kX1cR

http://blogs.internetautoguide.com/6...ines/index.htm