ESE's works engine tuner

[J.A.W.]

[QUOTE=husaberg;
I can't help musing that of you are going the spray bar technique with a low pressure and output pump Rob, it might be best to have the pump feeding both ends?


If you you a aluminium finned tank - it will cool better, you can also even spray/splash some cool oil onto the back of the crankcase wall.
One pump should be more than enough KISS[/QUOTE]



Yam RZ500 road bikes used a pumped lube cassette type trans..
H1/H2 Kaw triples ran a collector cup feeding oil to the hollow output gear shaft - from the primary gear/clutch oil splash.

Perhaps a simple plunger oil feed pump - could be rigged up - to be worked by swing arm movement?

Or an even simpler.. gravity feed from a tank..
It would take a fair while to fill the trans case 'sump' - up to gear level - anyhow, likely - longer than most races..

[husaberg]

I have been toying with the idea of making a catch tank out of a piece of finned turbo intercooler pipe.

Attachment 317759

If I put a sleeve over the finns and blow air through it with a fan then I could have a really good air cooled catch tank.

Attachment 317760

I also have one of these auto trans coolers that I could fit a fan to. Ok for the 110cc NSR water cooler but just none to sure about the legality of using it on the 125 which must be air cooled.

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ro...T2DD5YQsAQIGQ#

[peewee]

Wobbly:
Thank you for the pics and reply. If I may, a question about the intake length. It looks a bit long and is the long red spacer block just a transition from the round carb to the square reed? Another question, from the 4mm build-up at the bottom of the exhaust port, are you adding 4mm of fill the whole length of the port or is it 4mm at the port window and tapering to 0mm at the spigot end? I am building a 250 KTM now for hill climbing and very interested in what you did.Thank you, Jeff

i had a bunch of photos how to fill in the exh floor. dont confuse me with a professional welder though as it was my first go . youll want to have a idea ahead of time what the exh exit area should be, that way youll know how much of the floor to fill in. or what i did was just over fill it then grind it down to where it needed to be

[AndreasL]

Sorry if I'm sounding a bit negative...but haven't we been through "the cooling fan"-theories here before?

Ok, this is a different situation but not to much.

Love the finned cooling tank idea. With that you probably improve the cooling some WITHOUT making your system more complicated/heavy/expensive.

With the "coolers/fan/pump" solution you may improve the cooling some more. But to what cost in performance? I say cost since I believe the weight increase will make a slower bike.

All of the above stated if the gear box don't really needs the extra lube/cooling.
Or finding a loophole in the regs for air cooled engines running the gear box with a oil cooler to make a oil cooled engine a'la Porsche. I know you have thought about that before.

Ones again, I hope this come out right. I don't like to offend anyone.
But I'm a believer in spending resources were they make the biggest impact.
Then it's fun to just play around with different ideas, that's what make us come up with new solutions to old problems.

[wobbly]

Today I would use CFD to show the flow rate from the oil pump entering the spray bar over the gears, but back when I did the BSL
we made a small jig with a variable speed drive to the TZ250 gearbox pump.
This gave a good indication also of the gear ratio needed to drive the thing off the clutch input shaft.
It took 3 goes with varying sizes of the 6 orifices to get near equal discharge rates feeding the bar from one end only.
The pump inlet filter housing was at the lowest point of the case, that had a small sump with a cover that helped access for the CNC machining process.
Its cover was finned, but probably wasnt helped much by the proximity of the bottom pipe.
If doing it again I really like the idea as used by Honda in the NSR of feeding the pumped oil into the gear shafts,this way the oil floods out of
the support bearings,or if its a fixed gear then out thru the gear itself.
But I think they dropped oil onto the output shaft gears via a cast in slot with spray holes as well.

[jonny quest]

What is the advantage of an oil pump to the trans?

[wobbly]

A TZ350 ( with dry clutch ) has 1700mls of oil thrashing around all over the clutch primary and the all the gears.
The BSL500 had only 150mls and the spray bar directed a continuous small amount onto the clutch gear,the
transfer gears and the input shaft gear set.
At any one time less than 1/2 the oil was being used to lubricate these parts, the rest was in the sump around the pump
intake filter, and was well below any of the gears "dipping ".
Exactly the same effect as dry sumping a 4T crankcase.

[jonny quest]

I'm used to MX bikes, wet clutch.

I figured that was the deal... but the trans spins so slow compared to crank, curious as to what the actual gain is with an oil pump.

[TZ350]

Sorry if I'm sounding a bit negative...but haven't we been through "the cooling fan"-theories here before?

Yes true we have, but the fan idea keeps being attractive to me because you can greatly increase the cooling efficiency of an air cooled anything if you can purge the hot air trapped deep in the roots between the fins.

Curious as to what the actual gain is with an oil pump.

I am curious too, so it is one of the reasons I am re cycling the old air cooled motor which I have dyno data for. I will fit the old air cooled motor to the new chassis for testing before I put the super duper 110cc NSR/GP motor into the new frame.



Apart from any potential performance gain from a dry sumped motor I basically have to do it because the motor is so heavily tilted down at the front in the new frame that all the gear box oil will flood the rotary valve area and leave the gears dry, so I have to pump it back over the gears to lubricate them. And if your pumping oil around you might as well run it through an oil cooler too. And if you have an oil cooler you might as well make it as efficient as possible with a fan to shift air through it. Anyway that was the thinking. But with Wobbly pointing out that 150ml of oil was enough for the BSL 500 I will re think how big a catch tank I need.

[karter444]

has anyone had problems with JB metal weld falling out . I need to reangle an A port from its current 9* to 25* without changing the port height so need to fill the roof and then grind to correct angle
cheers

[AndreasL]

Yes true we have, but the fan idea keeps being attraktive to me because you can greatly increase the cooling efficiency of an air cooled anything if you can purge the hot air trapped deep in the roots between the fins.

Don't you think some clever ducting to i.e. the finned pipe used as a catch tank would give enough air flow, even at the low speed tracks?

I really like what you are doing TZ and I'm looking forward to new posts about the 110cc.

[lodgernz]

has anyone had problems with JB metal weld falling out . I need to reangle an A port from its current 9* to 25* without changing the port height so need to fill the roof and then grind to correct angle
cheers

DevCon Liquid B. Sit the cylinder on a wedge at the angle you want the port roof to be, then tip some DevCon in. No grinding required. Think hard before you pour though...

[wobbly]

You can do the same with Devcon F putty.
Plaster enough into the corner to get the fill needed, sit the cylinder on the angle in an oven set at around 50 to 70*C.
As the cylinder and epoxy warm up if flows out nicely flat and the elevated temp then starts the setting process much quicker.
If you are filling a large amount you can drill and fit in small PK screws so the protruding heads are captured with the epoxy.

[husaberg]

I am curious too, so it is one of the reasons I am re cycling the old air cooled motor which I have dyno data for. I will fit the old air cooled motor to the new chassis for testing before I put the super duper 110cc NSR/GP motor into the new frame.


Apart from any potential performance gain from a dry sumped motor I basically have to do it because the motor is so heavily tilted down at the front in the new frame that all the gear box oil will flood the rotary valve area and leave the gears dry, so I have to pump it back over the gears to lubricate them. And if your pumping oil around you might as well run it through an oil cooler too. And if you have an oil cooler you might as well make it as efficient as possible with a fan to shift air through it. Anyway that was the thinking. But with Wobbly pointing out that 150ml of oil was enough for the BSL 500 I will re think how big a catch tank I need.

With the KR250 or 350 (I forget which) racing at Daytona one year. Kawasaki lowered the gearbox oil level as they found the hot oil was causing power fade but heating up the rear wall of the crankcase (pretty sure that came from Cameron)
Of course re the oil levels there is no reason not to separate the oil from the primary drive and the gearbox, Conversely there is actually plenty of very good reasons to actually do this.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/09/18...e-performance/

[ken seeber]

There's a bit of an interesting read on transmission oiling in the forum deracehelden. Can't seem to be able to post the link to the exact section, but if you go to:

http://translate.google.com.au/trans...35%26bih%3D817

Then go to Full version, then Overall engine talks, then Jan Thiel Pt 14, then to Page 44, read from Bravo down

Bit of a struggle with the Dutch to English translation, but it certainly indicates there are gains to be made from having less oil or, alternatively, removing a hydraulic viscous brake from the transmission.