ESE's works engine tuner

[bjorn.clauw.1]

at a bit of a loss at the moment.
wallace and i are putting a new ignition onto my kr150 using an ignitech dc-cdi-p2. its only in the testing phases at the moment. idles beautifully, it has a nice clean signal on idle. but when the revs get up a bit the signal is getting a lot of noise and around 6000 the ignition starts jumping between 6000-17000rpm so going on the rev limiter. the way the pick up is at the moment is that its getting a signal off a small hole in the flywheel, probably a balancing hole. so rather than having no signal then a pulse, im getting a signal then a pulse of no signal, is this still good enough way to have it set up?
any reason why the ignition would be jumping up and down the revs so much?
i may not have explained this quite right but its best as i understand it

soz for crap pictures it was dark and my phone is shit

Hello, never worked with ignitech so I don't know if you can specify the pickup signal composition/puls duration/number of pulses, but I use (as do most I believe) a positive puls trigger like below. Could be quickly verified if you drill the hole through, thread it and use the head of a small bolt for your pickup. (And offsetting the pickup) if there is no embossed surface provided on the original flywheel.



Also, the exposed copper between red wire from your pickup twisted with the yellow one makes for a nice short antenna to pick up HF interference.

[sonic_v]

at a bit of a loss at the moment.
wallace and i are putting a new ignition onto my kr150 using an ignitech dc-cdi-p2. its only in the testing phases at the moment. idles beautifully, it has a nice clean signal on idle. but when the revs get up a bit the signal is getting a lot of noise and around 6000 the ignition starts jumping between 6000-17000rpm so going on the rev limiter. the way the pick up is at the moment is that its getting a signal off a small hole in the flywheel, probably a balancing hole. so rather than having no signal then a pulse, im getting a signal then a pulse of no signal, is this still good enough way to have it set up?
any reason why the ignition would be jumping up and down the revs so much?
i may not have explained this quite right but its best as i understand it

soz for crap pictures it was dark and my phone is shit

That hole needs elongated. At the moment it only represents 5 degree crankangle. Try it at 20 degrees.
Ignitech's pulse rotors have quite a long dwell angle. Have a look on their site.
Actually, 3/4 down this pdf there is a good diagram. http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/dc...dccdip2_en.pdf

[sonic_v]

That's a nice compact scope.

What make and model is it?

[Tim Ey]

@Justharry:
Did I get you correct and you run the Ignitech "reversed" with the hole beeing the lobe? Then I would tend to agree - you may need to get it a bit longer and probably deeper, too. Wobbly once wrote the perfect lobe lenght for the ignitech - If I am not mistaken it was 15°? 20°? dont know exactly.

[F5 Dave]

Annnd to save Wob the effort, what plugs are you running? Resistor type?

[Grumph]

I'm reading this as the flywheel having a lobe as usual but it's getting a second unwanted signal from the balancing hole...

Can the pickup be moved further away from the wheel ? Don't know about ignitechs but some of those pickups will work at up to 1mm gap. Might get it out of the interference from the hole.

And Harry - that isn't a very flattering pic of Wallace......

Edit - some clarification needed please wallace. Does the rotor have a lobe ?

[adegnes]

Hefty dyno roller you got there!

[FastFred]

I'm reading this as the flywheel having a lobe as usual but it's getting a second unwanted signal from the balancing hole...

Early on Team ESE had a lot of trouble with ghost triggering from the balance holes and the trigger seeing the rotor magnets. The trigger could see the magnets through the rotors steel shell. Try more gap between the trigger and rotor and run it in an area away from balance holes. If you can, remove the magnets.

[wobbly]

I have found that the input circuit will work fine if the lobe length is at least as long as the magnetized poles diameter.
What you have with a hole is the signal polarity is reversed, this is OK on a late model firmware where it has auto sense, but can be a nightmare to figure
out on older units.
And as ESE found, the trigger can easily sense the magnetic field entering the hole thru the now very thin steel rotor wall from behind,especially as
the pole is directly over the hole.
I have had problems when the balance holes are nowhere near the pole, but still under the trigger body that contains the coil windings.
You can try reversing the trigger leads,but of course you have programmed in a straight line and strobed the firing point on lines marked
on the rotor/stator set to that advance angle - yes ?.
The ECU should trigger off a dropping signal, usually created by the second edge of a lobe.
Having a hole will generate a rising signal off the second edge, so the programming should be changed to suit.
90% of the time erratic timing is caused by RF - and the first question as above, are you are using a 5K plug cap, and a resistor plug as well - yes ?.
You will notice that the trigger wires are at opposite ends of the ECU plug to the coil wires,thus having a nice tidy loom with them all bunched together is asking for trouble,they
should be separated physically as much as possible, as soon as they exit the loom plug.
I cant see in the pic, but I bet the coil power wire is sitting on, or is close to the trigger signal or earth wire running up to the bike off the bench - and of course having
long leads like that are all great parallel aerials for RF injection to the ECU.

[JustHarry]

I'm reading this as the flywheel having a lobe as usual but it's getting a second unwanted signal from the balancing hole...

Can the pickup be moved further away from the wheel ? Don't know about ignitechs but some of those pickups will work at up to 1mm gap. Might get it out of the interference from the hole.

And Harry - that isn't a very flattering pic of Wallace......

Edit - some clarification needed please wallace. Does the rotor have a lobe ?

the pick up is as far away as the mount we have will allow. its about 1-1.5 mm i guess. wallace will proably reply soon enough and clarify what i cant.

I have found that the input circuit will work fine if the lobe length is at least as long as the magnetized poles diameter.
What you have with a hole is the signal polarity is reversed, this is OK on a late model firmware where it has auto sense, but can be a nightmare to figure
out on older units.
And as ESE found, the trigger can easily sense the magnetic field entering the hole thru the now very thin steel rotor wall from behind,especially as
the pole is directly over the hole.
I have had problems when the balance holes are nowhere near the pole, but still under the trigger body that contains the coil windings.
You can try reversing the trigger leads,but of course you have programmed in a straight line and strobed the firing point on lines marked
on the rotor/stator set to that advance angle - yes ?.
The ECU should trigger off a dropping signal, usually created by the second edge of a lobe.
Having a hole will generate a rising signal off the second edge, so the programming should be changed to suit.
90% of the time erratic timing is caused by RF - and the first question as above, are you are using a 5K plug cap, and a resistor plug as well - yes ?.
You will notice that the trigger wires are at opposite ends of the ECU plug to the coil wires,thus having a nice tidy loom with them all bunched together is asking for trouble,they
should be separated physically as much as possible, as soon as they exit the loom plug.
I cant see in the pic, but I bet the coil power wire is sitting on, or is close to the trigger signal or earth wire running up to the bike off the bench - and of course having
long leads like that are all great parallel aerials for RF injection to the ECU.

i will probably see Wallace this evening. we will look into elongating the hole. or maybe putting a different flywheel on as would taking more meta out make the flywheel unbalanced?
yes i have a resistor plug. but whats a 5k plug cap?

cheers Harry

[AndreasL]

Wobbly, or any other with knowledge.

The benefit of a programmable ignition have been proven time and again in this thread.
All being more or less racing engines though.

Is it possible to quantify, roughly, what the benefits of i.e. a Ignitec on a lower reving engine?
Lets say a low tech 50cc peeking at sub 10000.

And as a second thought, how will a relatively low rpm 500 MX bike be effected by the possibilities a adjustable ignition gives? Just set it up with a scaled curve from any other "good" bike and the benefits will be the same?

[wobbly]

A 5K plug cap is a resistor type.
The best is the blue or black soft rubber type by NGK as is used on Jetski's
Any digital ECU must have resistor plugs and cap, as this forms a low pass filter to kill RF from the HT lead to the plug.
An Ignitech will always give unending problems without both - and it will be impossible to use a usb adapter on the RS232 input
whilst the engine is running, the laptop will crash constantly due to the RF hash all over the loom wires.

[marsheng]

Having had a sleep, I have a few options. The pulse really nice and has a sharp rise time of around 80 volts. The false triggering may be the magnets in the flywheel. Funny, it will not trigger on a -ve pulse or if I reverse the pick-up coil. As the pulse is really good, a bit of electronic trickery should tidy it up the noise and make a nice clean signal. I'll post the results.

The drum is very nice, around 700kg and was used to make cardboard. It is that heavy that going through the gears is very similar to riding on the road.

Scope is a Rigol. I was told that it is made in the same factory as HP and this is their own brand name.

http://www.rigolna.com/products/digi...1000e/ds1052e/

or free shipping

http://www.dx.com/p/rigol-ds1052e-5-...3#.VuHPUiJP_-s

PS a good video for 125 in Thailand - 402m and 185kph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoECJhMSl8

Cheers Wallace

[Yow Ling]

Having had a sleep, I have a few options. The pulse really nice and has a sharp rise time of around 80 volts. The false triggering may be the magnets in the flywheel. Funny, it will not trigger on a -ve pulse or if I reverse the pick-up coil. As the pulse is really good, a bit of electronic trickery should tidy it up the noise and make a nice clean signal. I'll post the results.

The drum is very nice, around 700kg and was used to make cardboard. It is that heavy that going through the gears is very similar to riding on the road.

Scope is a Rigol. I was told that it is made in the same factory as HP and this is their own brand name.

http://www.rigolna.com/products/digi...1000e/ds1052e/

or free shipping

http://www.dx.com/p/rigol-ds1052e-5-...3#.VuHPUiJP_-s

PS a good video for 125 in Thailand - 402m and 185kph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THoECJhMSl8


Cheers Wallace

I have a P2 on a kr150 with no problems, used the stock pick up

[marsheng]

I have a P2 on a kr150 with no problems, used the stock pick up

This is an older bike that has one high voltage coil in the magneto that charges the "CDI" and provides the trigger. Some clever Jap must have designed this system. The while system comprises one wire from the magneto and a 'coil' and a spark plug lead. Nothing else.