ESE's works engine tuner

[41juergen]

The ceramic coating reflects the heat back to the gas boundary layer, this is fine in the chamber as it means more energy is used to create gas expansion.
But the boundary layer in the squish will detonate if the trapped end gases are heated by a hot surface ceramic coating.

Yeep, got it. I got already a quote from Chris from HPC, but still need to wait for the inserts...

[ief]

No Engmod, this would be done using the real McCoy, pressure sensors, though Neels would probably want to give it a spin through Engmod to compare the simulated data to the actual data.

The engine currently exists with a T6 Toomey and stock cylinders, that is not what it will end up being, I was simply planning to present the pressure data for the as is engine first, so all that is needed to do that properly is the port timing, bore, stroke, con rod length, piston pin offset, compression ratio, and of course the instrumentation.

If Neels wants to run it through Engmod then yes a lot more about the engine would need to be known, such as the dimensions of the T6 pipe, reeds, etc. etc. etc.

Not sure what you're asking, so you have the pipes? The rz file can easilly be converted to banshee, loose the pv and change port timing. If you suplied pipe dimentions... or whip something up that produces the same curve prolly not that hard to do.

[nitro2tfx]

Not sure what you're asking, so you have the pipes? The rz file can easilly be converted to banshee, loose the pv and change port timing. If you suplied pipe dimentions... or whip something up that produces the same curve prolly not that hard to do.

To clarify, I don't have Engmod, nor am I looking to get Engmod.

A friend of mine has a Banshee, T6 Toomey pipe, stock cylinders, VF4 reeds. I thought it might be interesting to simply install some pressure sensors on the engine sometime when I'm over there, and post the data on here (perhaps a new thread) for discussion. If and when mods are made to the engine I would post some more data.

This is not simulated data, but real data, and likely Neels would eventually want to run Engmod on it to compare the simulated results to the real results.

All I am asking for, for the time being, is what the stock port timing is for a Banshee, which from another website is indicated as 185 exhaust, 120 transfer, 114 boost and 110mm con rod, but I have no idea if this is correct or just speculation.

[Vannik]

Gentlemen,

Nitro2tfx is way too modest - he produces and sells some of the best and best value for money engine measuring equipment. Have a look at:

http://tfxengine.com/index.html

[ief]

Most strange indeed that there ain't a portmap floating around somewhere. Seen the same stuff you have I guess so that's no help. Somehow I have 169 exhaust in my head but anyway's... Surely someone on here has a barrel laying around. As for the pipe perhaps your friend could measure it is what I meant.

[wobbly]

If you adjust the sensitivity so that the pre deto light just flickers occasionally when under hard full load acceleration, then you know for sure
that as soon as a real "knock " event occurs the deto led will light up instantly.

[2T Institute]

My current project is a Metralla GT with a modified 370cc Pursang engine - Blair based porting, YZ250 reed with rear transfer, Husky 390 head etc. I've just finished building a dyno and should have some power figures in the next day or so. What I'd like to do is run it at Lake Gairdner next year, and with a little work I could possibly run it as a MPF and MPSF (modified production and modified production partially streamlined) in both 350 and 500 classes. Fuel would be methanol as I just don't envisage the air cooled engine surviving for that long at WOT on petrol.

I fully realise that this engine will be severely limited in output compared to modern designs - it's quite oversquare (85x64) which limits available port area with a single exhaust port, four transfers plus the rear, and air cooled. But on the other hand they're a very small, narrow bike with little frontal area, and previous speed attempts on similar machines have shown that they can reach remarkable speeds with quite modest engine outputs. The current records aren't particularly high so I'm not entirely convinced yet that I'm wasting my time... But before I commit I plan to spend as much time on the brake as necessary to prove that it's capable of making the necessary power as well as able to resist melting down at prolonged WOT.

Don't get sucked in by the low numbers from Lake Gardiner it isn't El Mirage or Bonneville, the task is much harder than you envisage, which will become apparent when you get out there. Don't worry so much about hotting the engine up, you will have enough dramas tuning the engine with the conditions you are likely to encounter. The big hurdles you have to jump are first timers need to be licenced to shoot for a record, next is your not allowed to work on a vehicle outside your designated pit (you might be in the line up at 8.30 am and run at 1pm), ambient temp could be anywhere from 20*C to 48*C, its in the middle of nowhere if you have a drama and you can't fix it then there is your week over and the increasing popularity of the event means you get less run time generally 1 or 2 a day if your lucky. Then the sting in the tail come 6 months later when every bit of aluminium is still growing "fur" on it despite cleaning it every month. Beware it's highly addictive because of the scale of the challenge. Run low comp and be able to predict jetting for the weather your likely to encounter at the time of your run.

[oldjohnno]

Don't get sucked in by the low numbers from Lake Gardiner it isn't El Mirage or Bonneville, the task is much harder than you envisage, which will become apparent when you get out there. Don't worry so much about hotting the engine up, you will have enough dramas tuning the engine with the conditions you are likely to encounter. The big hurdles you have to jump are first timers need to be licenced to shoot for a record, next is your not allowed to work on a vehicle outside your designated pit (you might be in the line up at 8.30 am and run at 1pm), ambient temp could be anywhere from 20*C to 48*C, its in the middle of nowhere if you have a drama and you can't fix it then there is your week over and the increasing popularity of the event means you get less run time generally 1 or 2 a day if your lucky. Then the sting in the tail come 6 months later when every bit of aluminium is still growing "fur" on it despite cleaning it every month. Beware it's highly addictive because of the scale of the challenge. Run low comp and be able to predict jetting for the weather your likely to encounter at the time of your run.

That is EXACTLY the sort of practical advice I need, thank you! Please, if anything else comes to mind that you think might help I'd appreciate hearing about it, either here or via PM. There's another bloke in my home town who has been running successfully at LG for the last couple of years, but in a completely different class. I'm hoping that he may also help us - and I'm happy to supply the beer - to turn up reasonably well prepared.

Re jetting to suit the conditions - will working on air RAD get in the ballpark or is something more sophisticated required?

[ken seeber]

Re the so called guru Denver - I worked with him in China on the Mira engine project, and all I will say is that I am guessing he would now be one of the reasons
the original Martin investor/inventor has walked away, wanting his name removed.
A previous misinformed media blurb tried erroneously to compare Den to John Britten,the problem being that most of Johns ideas were based on practical innovations, and were able to be ( and were ) translated into
working hardware by people with the requisite skills.
Denvers skill set revolves in large part, in being able to convince everyone, including himself - that anything he has thought up,that really is completely off the wall, is actually the next best thing to sliced bread.
This is then quickly followed by someone else's cash being vigorously poured down a very deep hole.
A perfect example would be the zillion hours spent designing a 1000cc V twin 2T, with no regard at all to the obvious fact a CR500 has real problems fitting 1 pipe on the bike - try finding room for 2 of them.
He is totally sincere and honest in his endevours ,but is one of those cases of excessive intellect that simply cant see real world limitations being a hindrance.

Wobbly, exceptionally well written. If 2 strokes don't need to go any faster, you could be come a journo.

[Makr]

My current project is a Metralla GT with a modified 370cc Pursang engine - Blair based porting, YZ250 reed with rear transfer, Husky 390 head etc. I've just finished building a dyno and should have some power figures in the next day or so. What I'd like to do is run it at Lake Gairdner next year, and with a little work I could possibly run it as a MPF and MPSF (modified production and modified production partially streamlined) in both 350 and 500 classes. Fuel would be methanol as I just don't envisage the air cooled engine surviving for that long at WOT on petrol.

I fully realise that this engine will be severely limited in output compared to modern designs - it's quite oversquare (85x64) which limits available port area with a single exhaust port, four transfers plus the rear, and air cooled. But on the other hand they're a very small, narrow bike with little frontal area, and previous speed attempts on similar machines have shown that they can reach remarkable speeds with quite modest engine outputs. The current records aren't particularly high so I'm not entirely convinced yet that I'm wasting my time... But before I commit I plan to spend as much time on the brake as necessary to prove that it's capable of making the necessary power as well as able to resist melting down at prolonged WOT.

My half-baked plan at this stage is see if a reasonable amount of power (65hp?) can be made with the Bul top end. Failing that I've been looking at some similarly sized but more modern cylinders that could possibly be adapted. One in particular that interests me would be from the Arctic Cat 800 HO engine - an 800 twin that makes 165hp at moderate rpms.

Anyhow I'd welcome advice anyone may have on developing such an engine with limited wall area as well as transfer passages that hug the walls fairly closely. I'm also interested in anything on methanol usage, particularly with regard to temperature control in an air cooled big bore engine. As well, I'm thinking of buying an EngMod2t license - does it model old-style engines such as the Bul effectively?

Here is the bike in question:

I love Bultacos.

I have never been to LG, but have raced at Bonneville for many years. 2T Institute is right about landspeed records. They are cherished because they are way harder than people realize, and LG is especially so.

I tried, for years, to make an air cooled RD400 last on gas...it really never did. Wobbly posted somewhere he experimented with methanol and WOT with an aircooled engine, loaded, and was successful with it. I never ran anything but gas because that was the record I was after. The final year I ran with the air cooled engine I had a ten orifice water mister, like that used in vintage airplane racing, that sprayed the front of the engine. It almost made it. Some clever ducting might have pulled it off, but a water cooled cylinder was really the solution.

If you do switch cylinders, go water cooled and save yourself much grief. WOT in top gear for miles is not done in any other motorsport. You just can't transfer enough heat into the air. You have a tiny window of time to sort out a huge amount of problems, and it is tough to test anywhere else. Good luck!

[oldjohnno]

The current edition of Old Bike Australasia magazine has a great story on the late Bert Flood. It mentions Berts speed attempts on his 350 Bul drag bike in '76, when he ran 152 on a closed-off section of the Northern Highway. Apparently he seized on the first run and had to do a hasty roadside rebuild before backing it up. Some good photos too, I'll put a couple up later.

I wouldn't even try to run petrol on the lake; it'd almost certainly end in tears.

[Peter1962]

Finally, there is a company that is gonna release an MX engine 250 cc 66,4 x 72 mm (+ kit 72 x 72 mm so 300 cc) with a balancer. Husky is using KTM engines so they probably are going to do exactly the same thing in 2017.
Should be a good engine for karting in the British national series for mono 250cc. (the competition is mainly the WIWA version of the Gas Gas 250 which has also a balance shaft.
http://www.vitalmx.com/photos/featur...90/ML512,13480

[nitro2tfx]

Gentlemen,

Nitro2tfx is way too modest - he produces and sells some of the best and best value for money engine measuring equipment. Have a look at:

http://tfxengine.com/index.html

Thanks for the intro Neels. As you know a Banshee engine is not exactly state of the art, but all the customer data we have from 2 strokes in general that are at the high levels of development, is confidential, so I can't ever post any of that.

There is no great agenda related to instrumenting a friend's Banshee engine, other than it is handy and it is a popular engine with a sizeable aftermarket/following. I suspect a Banshee has probably never been instrumented with pressure sensors before, or at least data for such has never been made available to the public.

The Banshee engine, even with future bolt-on aftermarket mods is likely to still show up as being a relative disaster in terms of combustion pressure, intake, transfer and exhaust port pressures, in that as it currently stands the engine probably only has an IMEP of 120 psi at peak HP (just a guess but we shall see), so pressure magnitudes in the combustion chamber, intake, crankcase, and exhaust are going to be pretty lame and probably ill timed as well. It seems likely that there could be a couple relatively simple things that come from this exercise that could be turned into aftermarket Banshee products that currently do not exist.

[nitro2tfx]

Most strange indeed that there ain't a portmap floating around somewhere. Seen the same stuff you have I guess so that's no help. Somehow I have 169 exhaust in my head but anyway's... Surely someone on here has a barrel laying around. As for the pipe perhaps your friend could measure it is what I meant.

Unfortunately the T6 pipe has no distinct cones, it can be measured by hand, but it will be a PITA. The pipe dimensions are not needed to collect or process the data, but it's always good to know the dimensions in one's head when looking at a trace.

For an engine that has a substantial aftermarket/following there is exceedingly little detailed info popping up on my searches, it seems to be primarily a bolt-on market for that engine.

[jonny quest]

Which knock gauge are you guys buying?

I saw a Kite Gizmo cylindrical shaped gauge that is self adjusting to your engines frequency by running engine, and holding a button down for a few seconds.