ESE's works engine tuner

[F5 Dave]

I wish people would use dyno curves all showing where zero revs is. Gives perspective where if you start a curve at 8000 odd it can make my 50 look respectable.

[FastFred]

... the restricted upper rev range is what I would expect from a 90mm rod on a 54.5mm stroke - the angular load on the vertical bearing must be really bad.

The angular load may be bad but the friction does not need to be if a rolling element can be used on both thrust faces. If there was some minimal clearance between the cross head and rolling element then the outer race of the rolling elements would not have to reverse direction when the stroke reverses.

The inertia of the rolling element would keep it spinning in the original direction as the load swapped from side to side. The outer race would spin up in much the same way as when you hold the inner of a bearing and spin the outer up by hand.

[Flettner]

The angular load may be bad but the friction does not need to be if a rolling element can be used on both thrust faces. If there was some minimal clearance between the cross head and rolling element then the outer race of the rolling elements would not have to reverse direction when the stroke reverses.

The inertia of the rolling element would keep it spinning in the original direction as the load swapped from side to side. The outer race would spin up in much the same way as when you hold the inner of a bearing and spin the outer up by hand.

I'm not sure the side load would be so bad in the Ryger system. If the sliding surfaces are, say, hard chrome (plated) on aluminium bronze with oil, that would be a whole lot better than an aluminium piston against a bore with minimal lubrication and lots of holes in it (ports). I imagine the short rod is two fold, try and keep the engine short (although why bother as it's already a tall engine anyway and 5mm isn't going to make bugger all difference) and perhaps whats required in regards to the combustion burn. The shorter rod will have the piston a little more time up top where the 'magic' apparently takes place. No, I think the real problem is the mass of the piston pulling the whole system apart at elevated rpm's, there is no way out, it's a large oscillating component.

[Frits Overmars]

The angular load may be bad but the friction does not need to be if a rolling element can be used on both thrust faces. If there was some minimal clearance between the cross head and rolling element then the outer race of the rolling elements would not have to reverse direction when the stroke reverses. The inertia of the rolling element would keep it spinning in the original direction as the load swapped from side to side.

That inertia would try to keep the outer race spinning at some constant speed.
But the speed of the crosshead is anything but constant, so there would still be a lot of slip between the two.
What's worse: the bearing cages with their contents would be subject to continuous acceleration and deceleration, causing friction and heat in the bearings.
This is already a burden in big end bearings, where the rate of rotation fluctuates only mildly, compared to what you are proposing.

The shorter rod will have the piston a little more time up top.

After the holidays, when eventual ethanol-effects have worn off, you might want to give this some more thought Neil .

[TZ350]

I wish people would use dyno curves all showing where zero revs is. Gives perspective where if you start a curve at 8000 odd it can make my 50 look respectable.

I can see what you mean.

Green 50% throttle and recording started at 4,000rpm. Red 100% throttle and recording the run started at 8,500 rpm.

Interesting that 50% throttle gives greater than 80% of the power and its diminishing returns after that with 80% throttle pretty much the same as 100% or WOT.

The Team ESE Dynojet chooses its own graph axis according to what was recorded. To display from zero rpm would require starting at zero rpm. As the Beast idles at about 3.500 rpm I have to start a dyno pull at 4,000 or so. And for practical purposes I am not always interested in anything less than the power curve itself.

But I agree, a graph starting at zero does give a better perspective of the real shape of the power curve and should be mandatory reporting so one can truly compere apples with apples.

[jasonu]

I wish people would use dyno curves all showing where zero revs is. Gives perspective where if you start a curve at 8000 odd it can make my 50 look respectable.

Dave mate it would take more than that to make your 50 curve look decent.
Happy new year to you and your tribe!!!!!

[mr bucketracer]

I wish people would use dyno curves all showing where zero revs is. Gives perspective where if you start a curve at 8000 odd it can make my 50 look respectable.

thats the trouble with 2 strokes , only four strokes can do that (-;

[TZ350]

After a bit of a break I have come back to the EFI project. Flettner and Speedpro had both suggested to me that my previous problems may not be the map itself but could easily be due to a simple option box in the software somewhere that needs to be un-ticked.

After carefully looking through the 100 odd fine tuning option box's I found a likely suspect. Its function seemed to be to completely shut the fuel off during periods of over run. This is to stop bore wash from excess raw fuel during long down hill runs. Great idea if you are riding a 4T scooter in the mountains.

The option box field is for entering the fuel resuming engine speed after the fuel was shut off in over run. The default was 3,800 rpm, ok for a 4T scooter but kind of low for a 13,000 rpm 2T but explains why the bike would shut down and not come on the throttle again after apexing a corner, the dam thing would not fire up again until it had nearly come to a stop.

I re set the fuel resuming option box to 12,000 rpm and a quick test up the drive showed a lot of promise with no hesitation when coming back on the throttle.



Bike setup with a laptop for auto tuning the EFI map under real riding conditions.

This weekend with Speedpro's help I am hoping to get the bike on a dyno that has a load break so the engine can be held under a steady load. The Ecotrons EFI software has a auto tune function and if the load rpm and TPS can be held steady for a short period the software will auto adjust the corresponding map cells. The whole map can be auto tuned in steps this way.



Wide band O2 sensor for auto tuning. Initially I had it in the header like 4T's do. but Wobbly suggested this is a better place on a 2T to get a reliable reading. Sure seemed to work ok and responded to air fuel ratio changes during a quick ride around the car park.



All packed and ready for plan A, a trip to the dyno, plan B is to find a quiet back road to putter up and down while the laptop does its auto tuning trick.

[adegnes]

After a bit of a break I have come back to the EFI project. Flettner and Speedpro had both suggested to me that my previous problems may not be the map itself but could easily be due to a simple option box in the software somewhere that needs to be un-ticked.

After carefully looking through the 100 odd fine tuning option box's I found a likely suspect. Its function seemed to be to completely shut the fuel off during periods of over run. This is to stop bore wash from excess raw fuel during long down hill runs. Great idea if you are riding a 4T scooter in the mountains.

The option box field is for entering the fuel resuming engine speed after the fuel was shut off in over run. The default was 3,800 rpm, ok for a 4T scooter but kind of low for a 13,000 rpm 2T but explains why the bike would shut down and not come on the throttle again after apexing a corner, the dam thing would not fire up again until it had nearly come to a stop.

I re set the fuel resuming option box to 12,000 rpm and a quick test up the drive showed a lot of promise with no hesitation when coming back on the throttle.



Bike setup with a laptop for auto tuning the EFI map under real riding conditions.

This weekend with Speedpro's help I am hoping to get the bike on a dyno that has a load break so the engine can be held under a steady load. The Ecotrons EFI software has a auto tune function and if the load rpm and TPS can be held steady for a short period the software will auto adjust the corresponding map cells. The whole map can be auto tuned in steps this way.



Wide band O2 sensor for auto tuning. Initially I had it in the header like 4T's do. but Wobbly suggested this is a better place on a 2T to get a reliable reading. Sure seemed to work ok and responded to air fuel ratio changes during a quick ride around the car park.



All packed and ready for plan A, a trip to the dyno, plan B is to find a quiet back road to putter up and down while the laptop does its auto tuning trick.

[adegnes]

Duplicate post...

[adegnes]

I've had the Spx on the dyno again, now with some serious weight added to the carb.



Actually seemed to help, although it was "foaming", about half of the fuel in the bowl remained a liquid.

Peak power is still low, 13.5ish rwhp at 13-13.5k rpm, not 18ish at 15.5k like engmod is predicting.
1100f peak EGT

I'll have to find time for a long session with jetting and ignition timing and quit mocking about. If that doesn't do anything I too am starting to think engmod needs different temp or comb data for low displacement engines.

[JanBros]

So now we have a completely new engine tune, and a dyno graph.
Problem is the "dyno " software is one I have never seen before,so one tends to start thinking this is just another scam,just like all
the other groundbreaking announcements that have proven to be utter bullshit.
But the restricted upper rev range is what I would expect from a 90mm rod on a 54.5mm stroke - the angular load on the vertical bearing must be really bad.

Yes I asked the question about the original 50 engines , as we were told we couldnt have one as they were all sold.
Now they have disappeared, and another " better " one has suddenly appeared.

The ONLY positive I have taken so far from any of this is that Frits seems to be truly convinced that what he drove all that time ago,
was pretty amazing.

Wish it were, I really do.

Bob Van der Zijden's last opinion on the Ryger :

RYGER is MOST probably a real cheat! And our beloved dreamers Frits Overmars and especially wanker LUC FOEKEMA were used by RYGER. Nephew FOEKEMA is still dreaming, Frits got awake in time and LUC is still living on f...ing cloud # 9. A major business player in the Karting world in Holland was cheated by RYGER for over 7000 euros some years ago.

http://www.pit-lane.biz/t6315p375-2s...-engine#327801

[_____]

[...]
Peak power is still low, 13.5ish rwhp at 13-13.5k rpm, not 18ish at 15.5k like engmod is predicting.
1100f peak EGT

I'll have to find time for a long session with jetting and ignition timing and quit mocking about. If that doesn't do anything I too am starting to think engmod needs different temp or comb data for low displacement engines.

I came to the same conclusion:

Hi wob and everyone!
I have a general question on the exhaust temperatures. Are they a depending on the cc of the engine?
I worked on a 50cc engine with engmod and the estimated peak of the simulation was at least 2000 RPM higher than in real life. In fact, i needed to make the temperature on the exhaust unphysically low (150°C) to get the rpm range to suit the reality.
I would suggest the temperature to be a formula of the cubic capacity, bmep and blowdown (more blowdown meaning less backflow to the transfers, thus the first gas scavenged and lost through the exhaust will be way cooler than with less blowdown)

I am currently working on a foul-stroke and am reading the 4T Blair for that purpose. On that book he describes the same issue about unphysically low exhaust gas temperatures "in reality"

[oldjohnno]

I've had the Spx on the dyno again, now with some serious weight added to the carb.


Actually seemed to help, although it was "foaming", about half of the fuel in the bowl remained a liquid.

Don't underestimate the effects of foamed fuel. I had problems with vibration related fuel foaming in a Mikuni TMX; the engine would accelerate nicely on the dyno until the rpms reached a point where the shakes became too much, whereupon the engine would simply stop firing altogether. The rpms would then drop a few hundred, the engine would fire again and the cycle would repeat over and over, sounding like it was bouncing off a rev limiter. A change to the crank BF eliminated the issue entirely, though it was never a problem with the VM carb.

[adegnes]

Don't underestimate the effects of foamed fuel. I had problems with vibration related fuel foaming in a Mikuni TMX; the engine would accelerate nicely on the dyno until the rpms reached a point where the shakes became too much, whereupon the engine would simply stop firing altogether. The rpms would then drop a few hundred, the engine would fire again and the cycle would repeat over and over, sounding like it was bouncing off a rev limiter. A change to the crank BF eliminated the issue entirely, though it was never a problem with the VM carb.

Sounds familiar.
I'm uploading the dyno video as we speak, you can see/hear the rev limit effect a couple of times.
There's no felt vibration in the handlebars/seat to speak of anymore after rebalancing to 58% bf. With the spring loaded swinging mounts, could my engine be too well isolated from the frame, not allowing it to soak up the vibration?
Have to get my hands on a few different carbs and try.