ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

I must add that both Jan and myself are fascinated by your posts. Keep up the good work!

Yes me too, for anyone else interested in the Ryger concept (I guess most of us are) there is a collection of links to Katanis "Ryger style engine" at the top of page 1660.

[katinas]

I don't know if anyone follows the Macad Ryger FB page but this popped-up a few days ago:
Attachment 328448

It's a 50cc engine with a Ryger spacer so I guess they've found a way to go even smaller. Of course, there's no info on it's construction but I see fins on the spacer for additional air cooling maybe?

I had thought the Ryger was destined to be smoke and mirrors until seeing your work, katinas. Keep it up!

Spacer is high and maybe more trust on small piston at TDC.

[shnaggs]

Hi,

I have no words, all in this photo is simply amazing. Its like late Christmas present. Thank you very much.
Spacer is high and maybe more trust on small piston at TDC.

I would think that a thicker spacer is really the best walk around to the force issue on the "small" piston, as you stated earlier katinas. Of coarse you are limited to the height of the head/cylinder. Looking at the new KTM125 sx at my shop, there seems to be quite a lot of space between the head and the frame. Would have to modify the head though to incorporate an angled spark plug. Maybe I could source a rs250 cylinder/head, if memory serves me correctly, the one cylinder head has a canted plug to make room for....something???

[wobbly]

Not the right place to air the laundry but here is the list of unnecessary bullshit that has ruined Dennis's debut with the new 400.

Brand new VeeForce reed fell to bits the first time it started,dumping a pile of shit thru the inlet ports - result,lump of chrome off the bore.
Brand new Nova close ratio gear set, jumps out of 3rd under power - yes its shimmed properly.
Brand new Hinson extra plate race clutch slips under power - yes its rated at 100 Hp.

All of this is completely my fault of course, as what the fuck do I know compared to the 500 guys in the Yamaha race dept.

[breezy]

Hi,

I know nothing about level, just chainsaw sound. Only testing on road will reveal the truth. Once, I asked my friend (biophysicist) how much idea proved in practice, his answer was about 15 per cent and at the end told that our brain is a rough tool.

Seal is at higher part of small cylinder, 4.5 mm lower than edge. Had to be 2 parts, Torlon® 4301 PAI (http://www.boedeker.com/torlon-4301.htm) and
grey PTFE, but should be an other solution. Still waiting Torlon so made one peace PTFE ( 37.8x42.6x2.4 mm). Its soft, so install it without cut, just like rubber O ring, torlon hard, to be cut. It is very critical part of Ryger conception, and I think that fuel always percolate into the crankcase oil (Bob van der Zijden, direct, high pressure EFI, maybe eliminate this to minimum ) . But for short racing time its good.
The more think about Ryger engine, the more it seems that reliability depends on "smaller" piston size. Jan note, somewhere in forum, "is very high load on very small surface" like always is accurate. Bigger "small" piston made engine more reliable ( from 41 mm and bigger, but that means bigger main piston, higher stroke ,higher engine capacity.)
With small "small" piston (from Ryger homologated drawings 36mm. 1 year old info. ) they needed very special aluminium coating, maybe nicasil not withstands load. So, maybe new Ryger engine had very special materials and tolerance like watch, and it requires a lot lot of time.

Found this, it is old but... http://www.ceramicindustry.com/artic...s-for-aluminum

katinas,do you know what the engines bottom end comp ratio is? now you have no crankcase to fill? any idea what your crankcase cc is?

[katinas]

Don't worry about it Katinas. That picture you posted was completely harmless and you are not responsible for other people's reactions.
I must add that both Jan and myself are fascinated by your posts. Keep up the good work!

Thank you very much for 2 stroke life support.

More photos from Brno GP 2001.

[peewee]

Yes me too, for anyone else interested in the Ryger concept (I guess most of us are) there is a collection of links to Katanis "Ryger like engine" at the top of page 1660.

i didnt follow the ryger story but i thought i remember something about sparkless combustion even though i believe there was a plug in the photo i seen. is this how you remember it?

[TZ350]

i didnt follow the ryger story but i thought i remember something about sparkless combustion even though i believe there was a plug in the photo i seen. is this how you remember it?

I think the Ryger is normal spark ignition, sparkless combustion was something else. Flettner made an engine along those lines to test the idea behind the sparkless combustion HCCI homogeneous charge compression ignition idea.

As I understand it. HCCI requires a well timed sudden increase in compression to start the homogeneous charge burning at all points in the combustion chamber. Flettner got his concept engine to run.

And the Ryger concept improves the delivery ratio, particularly at high rpm. Whereas the conventional two stroke has the pipe vigorously sucking the fresh charge into the cylinder at the same time as the crankcase gently squeezes fresh air/fuel charge into the transfer ducts the Ryger improves the transfer ratio by vigorously expelling the complete contents from the space under the piston into the cylinder. With the added benefits of the lower end lubrication being sealed off from the air/fuel transfer combustion process just like a four stroke does. I think a Ryger with direct injection could be a very clean 2T machine.

Anyway that is how I roughly understand it. There will be people with a better understanding than me and I would love to hear more about it from them.

[Grumph]

Not the right place to air the laundry but here is the list of unnecessary bullshit that has ruined Dennis's debut with the new 400.

Brand new VeeForce reed fell to bits the first time it started,dumping a pile of shit thru the inlet ports - result,lump of chrome off the bore.
Brand new Nova close ratio gear set, jumps out of 3rd under power - yes its shimmed properly.
Brand new Hinson extra plate race clutch slips under power - yes its rated at 100 Hp.

All of this is completely my fault of course, as what the fuck do I know compared to the 500 guys in the Yamaha race dept.

Were you happy with the pistons in the end ?

[wobbly]

The same 66mm Wossners have now done over 500 race Km in the TZ400 reving to 12,000 all day.
They started at 0.06 and are now 0.08, see no reason to take them out yet.
So pistons are fine,though I did drill a couple of holes in the skirts each side of the Ex port as the Aux port bridges in the new engine were getting shiny before
the rest of the bore.

[katinas]

katinas,do you know what the engines bottom end comp ratio is? now you have no crankcase to fill? any idea what your crankcase cc is?

Hi,

Volume under the piston at TDC and palate, with reed block in place, around - 310 cc.

Suction volume -71,6 cc.,

Volume under the piston at BDC and plate- 238.4cc

Bottom compression around - 1.3

Crankcase not measure

[oldjohnno]

... Whereas the conventional two stroke has the pipe vigorously sucking the fresh charge into the cylinder at the same time as the crankcase gently squeezes fresh air/fuel charge into the transfer ducts the Ryger improves the transfer ratio by vigorously expelling the complete contents from the space under the piston into the cylinder...

Has anyone done the sums on the pumping losses incurred between TDC and transfer opening as the fresh charge is compressed below the piston? I imagine that it could be significant, especially with the high CRs possible with a Ryger-style isolated crankcase. And none of that energy is recouped - the air is just squished up and then released, just like a Jake brake. I'd have thought that getting the pipe to provide as much of the pressure gradient across the ports as is possible would allow lower primary CRs to be used along with lower pumping losses?

[breezy]

Hi,

Volume under the piston at TDC and palate, with reed block in place, around - 310 cc.

Suction volume -71,6 cc.,

Volume under the piston at BDC and plate- 238.4cc

Bottom compression around - 1.3

Crankcase not measure

ok.. thanks for that info.. i thought you would be able to give me that information because i can see you have gone into this engine set up in a good technical way...lets hope for good weather for you to test under load... thanks

[wobbly]

A 125 cylinder with 310cc of " case " volume at tdc would have a primary com of 310/310-125 = 1.67.
That ratio would indicate huge pumping losses.
But the engine with 310 at tdc and 238 at BDC is only 1.3 - perfectly normal for a race 125.
So what am I missing in the Ryger " concept " of using big primary com to force transfer the charge into the cylinder, instead of an efficient pipe
pulling it thru around BDC.

[TZ350]

So what am I missing in the Ryger " concept " of using big primary com to force transfer the charge into the cylinder, instead of an efficient pipe pulling it thru around BDC.

The max possible pressure differential across the port that can be created by a pipe alone is 1 bar, and pipe plus primary com of 1.3 would be 1 * 1.3 = 1.3bar max differential across the port.

The Ryger using big primary com ratios could easily have a much bigger differential across the port than that. The Ryger also utilises a pipe, maybe more for improving trapping efficiency than transfer ratio.

But there must be more to it than that to justify the big Ryger hp claims......