ESE's works engine tuner

[Flettner]

Although twostrokes are a religion, this is not a church as in we here don't just believe something because some one said so. Results are required!
Luc, you must see that this carrot that you have dangled in front of us has all but shriveled up now. I'ts been too long with nothing. The irony is if you had been open an frank about this development we all would have helped out to see it succeed but we all now fell let down and tricked by you. SOOOOOOON isn't good enough any more. I think some better ideas are emerging now anyway but they will be kept from your view.

[jfn2]

It seems that all the comments about the Ryger engine are about the performance characteristics. If I remember correctly when this engine first came onto the scene it was claimed to be a cleaner running 2-stroke and the performance was second. We all have a pretty good idea about the claimed performance aspect but what I want to know is ' Is this engine a cleaner running 2-stroke engine with acceptable performance?' And if it is, can it be improved upon from a performance standpoint? Moderators, please feel free to move this to the correct forum.

[ken seeber]

2 thoughts on the Ryger:

1. As the seeming first application was on a KZ kart engine, this is a racing application where the performance on the track is the ultimate dyno. We now have a vid of something dashing past some Chonda GX200 clones on a kart track. This being the case, then it shouldn’t be long until the thing is on the “real” dyno for the whole world to see.

2. I’m sure the majority who read/write to ESE do so because they love 2 strokes. Also sure they all realize the future of the 2 stroke is limited in the commercial world, despite its advantages being outweighed by its disadvantages. So the Ryger thing came along, giving us all hope that it could take, or even jump, the 2 stroke forward to stave off being taken over by 4 strokes or ultimately electric. Unfortunately, from the viewpoint of an outsider, it has been a fizzer to date.

So I reckon that Luc, with whatever connection you may have with the Ryger project, you should tell yourself and Harry/Hendrik to go away into the back room and get the thing sorted properly and then present it to the outside world such that it can be tried and assessed independently. Bringing out half-baked dyno info or vids don’t do yourself or the project any credibility.

No-one wants to be an arsehole here, we all would love to see it go as we were originally lead to believe.

[jamathi]

It seems that all the comments about the Ryger engine are about the performance characteristics. If I remember correctly when this engine first came onto the scene it was claimed to be a cleaner running 2-stroke and the performance was second. We all have a pretty good idea about the claimed performance aspect but what I want to know is ' Is this engine a cleaner running 2-stroke engine with acceptable performance?' And if it is, can it be improved upon from a performance standpoint? Moderators, please feel free to move this to the correct forum.

Running on fuel without oil doesn't make an engine 'clean' at all!
It just doesn't smoke....
All cars have to use catalyzers.
Even the biggest manufacturers have difficulties to make engines conforming the norms!
Ryger could not even afford the necessary testing equipment I think....
And of course I fully agree with Ken Seeber and Wobbly.....

[husaberg]

Running on fuel without oil doesn't make an engine 'clean' at all!
It just doesn't smoke....
All cars have to use catalyzers.
Even the biggest manufacturers have difficulties to make engines conforming the norms!
Ryger could not even afford the necessary testing equipment I think....
And of course I fully agree with Ken Seeber and Wobbly.....

BMW should be able to sort that out.

We realy don't care about all those negative replies, we are use to it !
All those people will very soon be very quiet!!

Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. Winston Churchill
The best effective way to silence critics is by producing tangable results.
No one is actually above be critiqued but some people view it beneath them to consider that Criticism can be valid feedback.husaberg 2017
some fella once said Criticism is valuable... and self-congratulatory experiences are not.

[TZ350]

And flow of a liquid - like fuel for example - through an orifice is proportional to the square of the pressure gradient. A cynic might say "If only there was some way to harness that venturi signal to deliver fuel directly into the engine..."

But I wouldn't...

Off course, liquid flow through an orifice is actually proportional to the "square root" of the pressure gradient which is convenient as your hypothetical fuel delivery device could be a goer.

Tried that but a lot of it fell into the bottom of the plenum wreaking havoc with control over the air fuel ratio and the heavy oily mixture left doubts about how much oil was actually getting to the motor.

First ever startup. https://youtu.be/YxiEo8cgopg

Bit of a strop up the drive. https://youtu.be/p4ef-WUO1Qs



During track testing the plenum showed real promise.



So because of plenum flooding the logical thing was fuel injection.

[lucf]

Jans comments were about the graphics you did of an RSA125 simulation,so have nothing to do with our discussion on here about the mystical Ryger horsepower.
In every other forum I have seen he completely rubbishes everything you have said, and you have said quite alot, but with NO PROOF of anything.
Showing us so called dyno graphs, that clearly have nothing to do with a dyno,then a video of some no name kart running around on a track with 4 stroke rentals
also has nothing to do with the engine being a success in reality.
On that video day it would be my opinion that DeConto would have been 2 seconds a lap faster, with a TM " only " revving to 15,000 ( proven ) with one flat tire ( joke ).

What you dont seem to understand is that everyone on here is really, really wanting this Ryger project to be a success, all you are doing is turning the whole thing to shit
by feeding us all so much unproven rubbish.
Please SHUTUP,until the new dyno Jan told me you have,produces something that is worth writing about.

I did and do write always the truth. The problem is that some people like you called it rubbish, because you don't understand and so you don't believe it.
My answer to those people is "not my problem but yours !!"

We never claimed that it is an absolute clean engine, but in comparioson with a normal 2 stroke, Yes it is !!.
Only people who want to be negative, explain it in wrong way, just like in politics.

The same at the replies on the powergraphic we show end last year. "It is calculated or simulised"
Well that reply is full rubbish, because a simulation program for the Ryger principle doesn't exist at all.
You can only calculate the differences. And I am very astonished that no one could find the positive side of the Ryger principle, which realy does exist !, only the negative side of it, which is very easy.

Choosing the negative side seems to be the most favorite way when people don't understand a situation. You can see that now every day on tv in politic discussions, before the Dutch elections.
But from clever people which are serious with somewhat like twostroke sience, you should espect something else? But I'm wrong, it seems to be exactly the same.

In the video you see a standard Ryger engine running around between many 4strokes and one KZ2. Everyone can measure laptimes, everyone can find the trackrecord (sorry not the KZ2).
But no one does! May be someone does and stay quiet. But all replies are again negative without looking a little futher!
Is that the only thing what many "2stroke tuners" can do to day?

On the Dutch forum "Racehelden" the replies are so negative, that I have stop writing there at all. On "PitLane most people, beside 1 exeption, are more patient and are waiting for our next step.
And these steps will come, but only at the moment we are ready to do so. We don't let us forced to do it in your way, beacuse it is not your but our project! You are not forced to follow it.

Stronger proofs will come in the near future, so you better start thinking about the differences to understand "where the power comes from?", instead to call it rubbish! And thinking starts with "real thinking" and not to shout every minut new rubbish suggestions. And don't tell me you did, because I did not read one good suggestion in all those years.

Because with those rubbish replies I'm not prepaired to explain anything!, Your choise !!
and sorry for my bad English!

[41juergen]

Running on fuel without oil doesn't make an engine 'clean' at all!
It just doesn't smoke....
All cars have to use catalyzers.
Even the biggest manufacturers have difficulties to make engines conforming the norms!
Ryger could not even afford the necessary testing equipment I think....
And of course I fully agree with Ken Seeber and Wobbly.....

We are supplying BMW (and all the others around the world) with the catalysts. Unfortunately even they are fighting (within the Husky activities) to get a road going 2T dirt bike running and passing the current EU4 (not talking about EU5/6) regulations...

[koenich]

luc seriously? one would think you have learned from the previous critical responses, but no - you continue being an ignorant claimer and choose to basically say all others are idiots cause they are not following your (unproven) words blindly. thats like religion, fighting who has the coolest imaginary friend - currently you fight hard for the coolest imaginary engine.

as wob and many others mentioned we all want this thing to suceed but you are making a joke of it and yourself by not being able to handle a bit backlash for your empty words.

[shnaggs]

Perfect answer Alex.

Shnaggs, why would you want to ramp up the velocity? If that were a good thing, you could reduce all cross flow areas to 1 mm² or even smaller. But somehow I doubt that it would help performance. I prefer to ramp up mass flow.
Anyway, increasing flow velocity by means of reducing the cross flow area is largely a fairy tale. Velocity comes from a pressure differential over a duct.
Lower the downstream pressure far enough and the flow velocity will reach Mach 1. Crank up the upstream pressure far enough and the flow velocity will also reach Mach 1 with the added benefit of a higher density in the flowing medium, i.e. more mass flow for the same Mach 1 flow velocity.

The fairy tale stems from the fact that with a large cross flow area there will be so much mass flow that the upstream pressure drops markedly even before the gas column in the duct is accelerated to the velocity corresponding to the initial pressure differential. So the velocity will never reach the value that it would reach with a smaller cross flow area. But who cares; we've got more mass flow. :.

Ok, I suppose I should have been less general with my question. Of coarse we need mass flow, but don't we want mass flow with as high velocity as possible? In my mind (have been known to be wrong from time to time) giving the mass flow more velocity gives it more momentum...and that would be a good thing, right? If flow is 'lazy' it will not go where it needs to go.

As an experiment, I made a w-block reed cage but turned it on its side, so it looked like two almost pyramid type reed cages with tapering angles toward the piston. Calculating the flow area was not intriguing, it had the same effective port diameter as a 80cc standard block. But when run on the dyno this reed cage made the exact same HP as the stock ktm w-block cage on a 125 & 250. Now, this either proves my point, or it proves Wobbly's point. Either my sideways w-block made good velocity, with lack of flow, or it split the inlet tracked into 2 separate channels, L&R helping the air turn the corner and charging the cylinder more uniformly?

I'm sure the answer to that would be the more uniform cylinder charging.

[jellert]

In the video you see a standard Ryger engine running around between many 4strokes and one KZ2. Everyone can measure laptimes, everyone can find the trackrecord (sorry not the KZ2).
But no one does! May be someone does and stay quiet. But all replies are again negative without looking a little futher!
Is that the only thing what many "2stroke tuners" can do to day?

I did take laptimes and from what I can see it's struggling to do a low 30... I'm sorry, but that's not good. I went back to see what times we did when I was at Eefde the last time. We were in the high 29's/low 30's, with a second hand 2009 Energy Kart we had never driven before, on years old Mojo D2 tyres and with a 125cc PRD Fireball. Nothing special about that engine, just a nice simple old karting engine with a steel insert cilinder. Even a friend who hadn't driven a kart in more than five years was in the 30's. So either your driver is really bad, that kart is absolute garbage, it was on concrete tyres or the engine.... (or a combination of these).

You'll probably argue that is was because of traffic, but I measured some laps from one of my videos with traffic and even those were in the 30's. You could also argue it's because we don't have to shift with that PRD, but no a KZ2 with a decent driver is faster at Eefde.

The replies are not negative, they are critical, because you don't provide any extra information. You only make big claims and say "wait and see!" When you make bold claims, people want to see you back up those claims. Posting a little video of a kart going around Eefde does not back up any of your claims. Don't get me wrong, like most people here I would LOVE to see the Ryger concept working as claimed, but this video proves nothing.

[adegnes]

My first encounter with methanol/nitro in a moped.
Typical outcome.



Crossing fingers for minimal damage inside.

[breezy]

My first encounter with methanol/nitro in a moped.
Typical outcome.



Crossing fingers for minimal damage inside.

hope theres not to much damage inside... thing is its more beneficial to see these things for yourself and test , rather than being told things... good post

[Tim Ey]

My first encounter with methanol/nitro in a moped.

Thanks for that post! I did not want to write anything below the "real thinking" alternative fact racehorse with the missing leg.

Ouch! Didn't you hear that the engine was running way to lean? Interesting that the Pilotjet hole in the PWK is so small.

[Haufen]

We are supplying BMW (and all the others around the world) with the catalysts. Unfortunately even they are fighting (within the Husky activities) to get a road going 2T dirt bike running and passing the current EU4 (not talking about EU5/6) regulations...

I agree with you regarding the difficulty. Good news is, KTM just announced their 2018 enduro models which will meet Euro4 emissions standard using transfer port injection.

Personally, I don't regard transfer port injection as 'revolutionary' (revolutionary for me would have been high pressure direct injection and no more scavenging losses at all and thus a real step forward in cleanliness, but hey, as a company you always go for the most economical way to achieve your targets), but I like the fact that one will be able to buy new two-stroke bikes in the future, too.

And I think they should mention Flettner somewhere in the article.