ESE's works engine tuner

[adegnes]

Thanks for that post! I did not want to write anything below the "real thinking" alternative fact racehorse with the missing leg.

Ouch! Didn't you hear that the engine was running way to lean? Interesting that the Pilotjet hole in the PWK is so small.

I did hear it, but just wanted to give it a little try, couldn't hurt...
Yeah, that pilot jet hole, weird.
Next try will be with massive jets, like 300% more fuel than with gasoline.

[TZ350]

page 1690 ....

Alot of these posts have pictures, you will have to follow the posts back to see them.

rad....... using your swede
http://www.swedetechracing.com/techt...et-Chart/63165
http://www.dtec.net.au/Air%20Density%20&%20Tuning.htm
https://srgclub.org/Jet_BL.html
http://www.tz250.com/forums/archive/...hp/t-4295.html
http://www.everything2stroke.com/for...0&d=1140811026.
https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm

About barometric pressure.

If the pressure is 'low' and oxygenlevel is 'high'
The engine gives the 'same' power as if the pressure is 'high' but oxygenlevel is 'low'.
The thing to measure is the density of air.
To do that with simple tools you calculate with moisture and temprature.
The moisture is complicated enough relativly to temp and pressure.
Thereby there´s an formula to calculate with relativitly moisture.
You can all find this info in dynocorrection standards, they calculate from different 'origos' but they do about the same job all of them.

To set things in perspective:
If a raise in atmosphere pressure is double, but density is half.(from originally situation)
The engine will not produce any more power.
Probably it will loose power as that situation only accurs in bad boostsetups.
(heatproblems)

Rgds.

Here is a jetting chart for a KZ2 engine, showing Density Altitude and RAD Vs Jet size in a 30mm Dellorto carb.
One point on the graph was best power on the dyno with egt at 660*C - so the other 2 points used to plot the line were really widely varying density days
but with the tuning done to achieve that 660 result.
All this is doing is replicating the bsfc number at best power, with widely varying air conditions - be they affected by temp, baro pressure or humidity %.

Katinas first test ride of the Ryger he built.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckOw-Cp7wH8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-0AH79mY2E

Is Viton the preferred material for O-rings used to seal liquid cooled heads?

Viton is the material of choice for the inner ring where it seals the chamber to the cylinder top.
But around the outside where it seals only water ,normal O rings are fine.

I have been made aware of the dangers of Viton when heated or burned as in fan belts on burnt cars being dangerous.

Lengthening the exhaust duct and cool it very well is one of the things I regret not having tried! I had the idea in 2007, but did not try it because I was planning to retire... Almost certainly it will give e good power improvement!

The idea floated about lengthening the Ex duct and increasing the cooling in this area is exactly what i will be advocating for the new kart engine design. Along with a shape change to include the Aux duct ears right down to the header joint and water having access into the back of the bolt on spigot.



Edit - here is the optimum duct geometry as I have found in EngMod.

Turbo:-

Some further reading for TZ he might need to reverse engineer it a bit for his application.
http://www.spartgsxrspecials.com/tur...and%20dont.htm

By the way, you should know that Albert Einstein distinguished four kinds of people:
dumb + lazy: harmless
dumb + diligent: disastrous
smart + diligent: not much better than dumb + diligent
smart + lazy: the only useful kind; those are the ones who seek efficient solutions.

Detonation.

This started te be a problem when 50cc engines started giving more than 17HP, around 1975.
At the time I thought this was a limit on engine power.
Nikasil plated cylinders were very prone to detonation.
Because of the rounded off edge at the top.
At Minarelli/Garelli I solved this problem by sticking the cylinder head insert 3mm into the cylinder.
A good solution, used for many years.
But at Aprilia we found an even better solution: plate the first 5 mm around the bore at
the top of the cylinder.
Later this was machined to a very sharp corner, and this eliminated completely the unnecessary
'dead room' at the top of the cylinder, it also gave 0,3HP more.....
A little bit of still remaining detonation was eliminated by modifying the inner wall of the
transfer ducts, cooling the piston.
But part-throttle detonation remained a problem.....
Which we never had on the dyno!
On the photo you see a piston after a 54HP run...
As long as you keep the throttle wide open a 2 stroke doesn't brake down!

The Aprilia RSW was a ROTAX design.
Later Aprilia made their own engines, but closely followed the original ROTAX design.
Except some small details.
Now they could say everything was 'made in Italy'
Which had financial 'advantages' for certain people!
Who could now take a bribe from the suppliers......as is usual in Italy.
So I am certainly not the 'father' of the Aprilia engines!

I was responsible for cylinder development, starting with 46,5HP and ending with 54HP.
Later, when working at DERBI, I had the idea of making the RSA engine, and made the first sketches.
The actual design was, of course, done on a computer by a professional designer.
Although it won several world championships I don't consider it a big success...

Aprilia always used AGIP fuels and oils for dyno testing
102 octane.
We were given face masks and special gloves, which we never needed for the 130 octane fuel.....

When modifying a cylinder measuring duct sizes is not easy, especially in the curves!
You can see our solution to this problem on the photo....
Round 'sensors' fitted to a piece of welding rod!
We had them from 7-7,25- 7,5 and so on until 28mm.
Behind the cylinder, in the wooden block.

Pistons:


We had cast and forged pistons.
Cast pistons gave slightly more HP, but sometimes cracked.
0,8mm piston rings gave more HP than 1mm rings.
As the auxiliaries and transfers overlapped each other a certain power los was caused by this.
So closing the pin hole in the piston was tried.
There were many solutions that were tested, but they all caused some trouble.
In the end the best, and most reliable, solution was welding then closed.
This was very well done by PANKL in Austria, and never caused any trouble!

Do you mind me asking why do you think cast pistons made more hp than forged?

Because forged pistons had a tendency to 'bend' their top inwards.

Transfer ducts.

Many transfer ducts with small differences were tried.
We found more power by enlarging the A-port in the direction of the exhaust.
Only the lower half, but it was important to give the A-duct an inclination away from the exhaust!
The ducts were very conical, the smallest point being the port.
In and outside walls of the ducts had a constant radius from top to bottom.
The flow remained attached to the inside radius and so cooled the piston and eliminated detonation.
Flow bench testing and the Jante type testing proved useless for power improvement.
Giving the rear side of the B-duct an inclination versus the middle of the cylinder gave a big improvemet

[TZ350]

Why split the cylinder height reduction between head and barrel - 2mm off barrel, 2mm spigot on head?

Honda NSR250 MC21 cylinder.

I could only take 2mm off the barrel and still have some water jacket sealing area left.



Needed minus 4mm so 2mm off barrel and 2mm off head. The head spigot is a very neat fit into the barrel, maybe 0.005".

[WilDun]

I agree with you regarding the difficulty. Good news is,......... KTM just announced their 2018 enduro models which will meet Euro4 emissions standard using transfer port injection.

........... but I like the fact that one will be able to buy new two-stroke bikes in the future, too.

And I think they should mention Flettner somewhere in the article. :-)

My hope is that the words "two stroke" have not been sullied by the powers that be. The legislation was all supposedly about reducing pollution but they mentioned the two stroke as the main culprit.
We now see (and hopefully the legislators do too) that the two stroke is capable of holding it's own in the cleanliness department, however when "two stroke" is mentioned it makes people recoil in horror (like sugar in food )! ............ maybe time for some good strong advertising ...... or even a name change? ....... well, maybe not

And yes Flettner did prove conclusively that EFI does work.

[Frits Overmars]

Next try will be with massive jets, like 300% more fuel than with gasoline.

Now that could really destroy your engine Alex, because it will make a lot more power but it may still be too lean.
300% more fuel than with gasoline would be fine with methanol; in fact you would 'only' need 130% more.
But playing with nitromethane is a different ball game. If you use 100% nitromethane, all your fuel passages need to be 9 times as big as with gasoline.
If you start mixing the various juices, it will of course depend on their percentages. You can do the math yourself, based on their stoichiometric values:
gasoline: 14,7
ethanol: 9,0 - 63 % more fuel required for the same amount of air.
methanol: 6,4 - 130 % more fuel required for the same amount of air
nitromethane: 1,67 - 800 % more fuel required for the same amount of air

Here is some more light reading on the subject.
http://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3...t-fuel-or-what
http://www.darkside.ca/node/77

[adegnes]

Now that may really destroy your engine Alex, because it will make a lot more power but it may still be too lean.
300% more fuel than with gasoline would be fine with methanol; in fact you would 'only' need 130% more.
But if you start playing with nitromethane, things change. If you use 100% nitromethane, all your fuel passages need to be 9 times as big as with gasoline.
If you start mixing the various juices, it will of course depend on the percentages. You can do the math yourself base on their stoiciometric values:
gasoline: 14,7
ethanol: 9
methanol: 6,4
nitromethane: 1,67

Here is some more light reading on the subject.
http://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3...t-fuel-or-what
http://www.darkside.ca/node/77

Ok, thanks! 400% then

How about the 15% of oil in my mix? Judging by the mess behind my bike, alot of it just passe through, should I just consider it "dead weight"?

[wobbly]

So in reality we have seen absolutely nothing - does this make him an incompetent idiot, maybe not.

[jonny quest]

KTM has fuel injection figured out on 2 strokes

[mr bucketracer]

We have a similar situation with Suter in the field of two stroke fuel injection, as we have with Luc and his Ryger.
NO person or company, apart from Flettner , have built and then shown on the net a two stroke that runs perfectly well in its intended application.
We know Honda tried, practiced with it but it , but never raced it.
Cagiva tried it, and Foggy walked away from riding it at all it was so bad.
Aprilia tried it, and got marvelous dyno results, but the track test said it was rubbish.

Now we have Suter, a zillion dollar project, with all the big fanfare of expectation in the press of blowing everyone away at the TT.
We all hoped, but no, a complete flop on the track.
This would have been OK,but the big headed people in charge at Suter were so self absorbed in their own genius, they just assumed the thing would be a rocket
with no real track testing proof before entering the most prestigious racing event on the planet.
All it really achieved was to make them all look like incompetent idiots.

Luc has been telling us for years that the Ryger is better than sliced bread, starting with its 70Hp and 30,000 rpm,then slowly downgrading the expectations
derived from his very outdated ( MOTA ) simulation code.
They even built 50 of the things to get CIK homologation - yet no sign of a single one of them being tested.
So in reality we have seen absolutely nothing - does this make him an incompetent idiot, maybe not.
For sure most of us are sick and tired of the hype - so as I said before SHUTUP, till an independent real dyno gives us some proof.
Then we will all bow down to the new King of 2T - a title that Mr Thiel is easily hanging onto at this time.

get a life you angry little man

[wobbly]

From KTM " The KTM 250 EXC TPI and KTM 300 EXC TPI models will be introduced to the global market as part of the model year 2018 lineup, while the
250 XC-W TPI model will be introduced to the U.S. and Canadian markets."
So we havnt seen the result yet,and due to the technology it wont have a chance of getting close to the emission standards that the ETEC direct injection system
slaughters easily.
Thats the real problem, the only viable way forward at the moment for a 2T to challenge the Honda incited 4T curse at present, is locked up in patent law.

[Norman]

First of all, I have followed this fantastic source of knowledge presented here regarding two strokes and tuning. I am not an engine expert at all, (I wish I would have become a Jan, Frits or a Wobbly, et.al.) and I would rank myself at the most as a very average mechanical engineer. I am working in the supply chain for close to engine parts to automotive OEMs. Back in 1983 I did, however, finally manage to tune my GP125 to severably beat my friends RD125LCs. Yes! No driving alone anymore! What could I not have done with all the information here at the time..!?

I have followed the information coming out about Ryger for some time. I must say that I have not yet lost patience. I cannot believe that somebody would be so stupid to put so much energy and money into a project like that with the goal to, by intent, try and fool a number of engine buyers/financers. I believe it is an honest project, but that they do have run into some sort of problems (as we all do in development projects) along the way. And yes, unforseen problems can take time to fix. With relatively limited resources it takes even longer. For example, a part supplier fault made in the first pre series delivery, after the initial well functioning prototypes, can be a disaster for a time plan. Complete new durability tests and performance tests might have to be conducted (and most likely much much more work). This just as an example. I do not either expect that we will be given all the details about the function of the engine, and details how we can build our own Ryger engine. If I were Ryger I would also be very reluctant to give out any very detailed findings how everythings works together. I am grateful for all the FREE information given from you with the knowhow here, but I also respect the need for the Ryger company to protect their business case.

We can only wait and see what happens and hopefully we soon can get the information that gives us a better understanding of the Ryger concept, and a final conclusion/results if it really works.

Luc is enthusiastic, but could you really blame him?

[2T Institute]

I did and do write always the truth. The problem is that some people like you called it rubbish, because you don't understand and so you don't believe it.
My answer to those people is "not my problem but yours !!"

We never claimed that it is an absolute clean engine, but in comparioson with a normal 2 stroke, Yes it is !!.
Only people who want to be negative, explain it in wrong way, just like in politics.

The same at the replies on the powergraphic we show end last year. "It is calculated or simulised"
Well that reply is full rubbish, because a simulation program for the Ryger principle doesn't exist at all.
You can only calculate the differences. And I am very astonished that no one could find the positive side of the Ryger principle, which realy does exist !, only the negative side of it, which is very easy.

Choosing the negative side seems to be the most favorite way when people don't understand a situation. You can see that now every day on tv in politic discussions, before the Dutch elections.
But from clever people which are serious with somewhat like twostroke sience, you should espect something else? But I'm wrong, it seems to be exactly the same.

In the video you see a standard Ryger engine running around between many 4strokes and one KZ2. Everyone can measure laptimes, everyone can find the trackrecord (sorry not the KZ2).
But no one does! May be someone does and stay quiet. But all replies are again negative without looking a little futher!
Is that the only thing what many "2stroke tuners" can do to day?

On the Dutch forum "Racehelden" the replies are so negative, that I have stop writing there at all. On "PitLane most people, beside 1 exeption, are more patient and are waiting for our next step.
And these steps will come, but only at the moment we are ready to do so. We don't let us forced to do it in your way, beacuse it is not your but our project! You are not forced to follow it.

Stronger proofs will come in the near future, so you better start thinking about the differences to understand "where the power comes from?", instead to call it rubbish! And thinking starts with "real thinking" and not to shout every minut new rubbish suggestions. And don't tell me you did, because I did not read one good suggestion in all those years.

Because with those rubbish replies I'm not prepaired to explain anything!, Your choise !!
and sorry for my bad English!

IF tht kart made anywhere near 60hp it would nearly undrivable, would lift the inside rear and smoke the rears at the drop of a hat. Kart doesn't even look fast in a straight line.

[FastFred]

KTM has fuel injection figured out on 2 strokes

125 ... 250 or bigger, RPM? number of injectors, MAP? pictures?

I am sure TeeZee would love to know more. ....

[DoldGuy]

TZ, information on F-I...

http://smcomp.com/~smurph/RZ-EFI/index.html



http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1899

Bike has been on the street for years, hope there is some helpful information.

[tjbw]

Hi,

I can imagine the main important difference ( except mechanical side ) , between "normal" and "ryger" engines, that can play different games inside the cylinder:

The main stream from carb sucked directly to transfer ports when piston moves up and together with pipe, maybe its very strong tandem.


When piston at BDC the squash between piston and small cylinder top edge generate strong stream directly to transfers ports (maybe, at high rpm piston is like ball between two different springs).

Main piston have minimal contact with main cylinder , piston ring work without side force from piston at TDC and BDC.

Smaller suction volume ( but on bigger capacity engines, difference between working and sucking volume not so big )

But maybe Frits theory play another game

About rygerised NS 250. Finished straight header pipe, brakes, suspension. Start engine again, want to hear rpm with and without pipe. So without pipe engine max. revs 10200 rpm. Can't remember rpm without pipe on std. engine. With new pipe 13400 rpm. but carb, ignition,.... This week want to install new radiator with hoses, and a lot of small things, that EAT so much time . Maybe next week will try it.

Interesting, from homologation, Ryger exhaust final section before stinger 29mm. Is it final dimension, or dimension before smaller tube.

Katinas, thanks for sharing your thoughts on Ryger. Do you expect your engine to achieve HCCI?

Regarding the stinger, it appears that it's not homologated, but must match the homologated Ryger exhaust @ 29mm diameter, and one of the homologated silencers. Perhaps LucF could confirm the dimensions.