ESE's works engine tuner

[husaberg]

We have a similar situation with Suter in the field of two stroke fuel injection, as we have with Luc and his Ryger.
NO person or company, apart from Flettner , have built and then shown on the net a two stroke that runs perfectly well in its intended application.
We know Honda tried, practiced with it but it , but never raced it.
Cagiva tried it, and Foggy walked away from riding it at all it was so bad.
Aprilia tried it, and got marvelous dyno results, but the track test said it was rubbish.
.

As far as i am aware Itoh did a full season on an injected NSR500 which s why he only had a decent result when he filled in on Doohans bike for one race 95 (i think)
I am pretty sure Honda was pretty coy about it or was it maybe they were just letting the journalists think thats what they were doing?
Honda had some success with the EXP2 which was injected.
The thing is, carbs work very well. Actually in a lot of situations feel is more important than outright power. The IOM TT is one.
There has been a few injected trials bikes but i have never tried one.

[katinas]

As far as i am aware Itoh did a full season on an injected NSR500 which s why he only had a decent result when he filled in on Doohans bike for one race 95 (i think)
I am pretty sure Honda was pretty coy about it or was it maybe they were just letting the journalists think thats what they were doing?
Honda had some success with the EXP2 which was injected.
The thing is, carbs work very well. Actually in a lot of situations feel is more important than outright power. The IOM TT is one.
There has been a few injected trials bikes but i have never tried one.

This is from "Honda GP Racers" :
93' Itho speed record at Hockenheim 320kph, 10kg/cm2 at injectors.

But during 94' Hattori recalls; throttle linearity proved to be worse than with carb, so we moved the programme back to fundamental research level, to look at fuel atomization, and flows into the crankcase and around the reed-valve. Understanding these factors is essential to obtaining good throttle control.

[husaberg]

This is from "Honda GP Racers" :
93' Itho speed record at Hockenheim 320kph, 10kg/cm2 at injectors.

But during 94' Hattori recalls; throttle linearity proved to be worse than with carb, so we moved the programme back to fundamental research level, to look at fuel atomization, and flows into the crankcase and around the reed-valve. Understanding these factors is essential to obtaining good throttle control.

Yeah, but the speed record is a bit misleading, as Itoh was a little fellow and Doohan couldn't tuck in as well due to injuries.
Not sure when the last year was on the "jungle juice" fuel but it was arround then as well.
I think Honda was attempting to conserve fuel and achieve lower emissions, more than added power.
Also on a twin crank V4 like a Yamaha the combatness of the engine is compromised by the space needed for the carbs inside the V. Not so much an issue on the NSR500 though.

[Ocean1]

There has been a few injected trials bikes but i have never tried one.

The Ossa is bloody good immediately off idle right through the range. Runs clean again straight after a throttle chop.

I know they had trouble with the early ones but that was more related to starting current for the ecu, (no battery).

[husaberg]

The Ossa is bloody good immediately off idle right through the range. Runs clean again straight after a throttle chop.

I know they had trouble with the early ones but that was more related to starting current for the ecu, (no battery).

Direct injection?

[TZ350]

300% more fuel than with gasoline would be fine with methanol; in fact you would 'only' need 130% more. But playing with nitromethane is a different ball game. If you use 100% nitromethane, all your fuel passages need to be 9 times as big as with gasoline.

There may be another approach. Nitro has slightly more fuel than oxygenate and only slightly more fuel is why you need so much "Nitro" to consume all the oxygen in the inducted air and not run lean.

My approach would be to get the engine running properly on methanol then add Nitro. Bigger jet required in proportion to the extra Nitro so that you still get the same amount of methanol as before for the inducted air. The Nitro consumes its own fuel and the extra hydrocarbons just richens things up a bit.

I would have the methanol flowing through the main jet and use a separate switchable power jet arrangement for the Nitro. That way, when the Nitro was on you would get more power and noise and heat and a slightly richer mixture.

[Flettner]

See if you can see the Euro4 DTPI Kawasaki, out doing secret testing in NZ the other weekend
https://youtu.be/ZqzOgOJuJ1E

[adegnes]

There may be another approach. Nitro has slightly more fuel than oxygenate and only slightly more fuel is why you need so much "Nitro" to consume all the oxygen in the inducted air and not run lean.

My approach would be to get the engine running properly on methanol then add Nitro. Bigger jet required in proportion to the extra Nitro so that you still get the same amount of methanol as before for the inducted air. The Nitro consumes its own fuel and the extra hydrocarbons just richens things up a bit.

I would have the methanol flowing through the main jet and use a separate switchable power jet arrangement for the Nitro. That way, when the Nitro was on you would get more power and noise and heat and a slightly richer mixture.

That's a great idea! Only problem is I can't get hold of any pure nitro, they fear we will be making bombs...

To stay on the safe side while creeping up on this fuel I could use your approach and move the nitro % over to the air side of the equation. What are your thoughts on the oil and afr?
Maybe move it to the air side too.

[husaberg]

That's a great idea! Only problem is I can't get hold of any pure nitro, they fear we will be making bombs...

To stay on the safe side while creeping up on this fuel I could use your approach and move the nitro % over to the air side of the equation. What are your thoughts on the oil and afr?
Maybe move it to the air side too.

Try a chemist or a dry cleaner.
Or those guys that fly the pylon mini planes.
The Drag guys get it from somewhere.

[adegnes]

So...

Methanol afr 5:1
Gasoline afr 12:1
12/5 = 2.4 = 140% increase in jet area

35% of the fuel moved to the air side
140+35 = 175% increase in jet area

I think I'll start on 400% and carefully work my way down to that number. Spoke to a guy yesterday who had melted 40 plugs dialing in his scooter on methanol/nitro.

[katinas]

Katinas, thanks for sharing your thoughts on Ryger. Do you expect your engine to achieve HCCI?

Regarding the stinger, it appears that it's not homologated, but must match the homologated Ryger exhaust @ 29mm diameter, and one of the homologated silencers. Perhaps LucF could confirm the dimensions.

Honda NS cylinder is not the best options for rygerised engine. Restrictive Boyesen ports, small transfers windows, small reed cage. But I have this two NS 250 and NS 400 for experimentation. Original plan, before Ryger story, was made 3- cylinder NS400, with yamaha TZ 250 DP4 barrels (studs location on NS and DP4 cylinders almost identical - 96mm. from side to side and 1mm. difference from back to front NS-79mm, DP4-78mm.) Just needed made, aprox 20 mm. spacers with reed, between crankcase and DP4 cylinders. Maybe return some day to this.
About HCCI, I do not expect. Now, I would do little different (piston, cylinder, small cylinder). But, who knows. I would like to do first ride next week (but not the obligation).

Just remember story from Frank Zappa book about his childhood and his dad "knowing".
"The labs at Edgewood did provide young Frank with some fun toys, though. His dad would “bring equipment home from the lab for me to play with: beakers, Florence flasks, little petri dishes full of mercury—blobs of mercury. I used to play with it all the time. The entire floor of my bedroom had this ‘muck’ on it, made out of mercury mixed with dust balls. One of the things I used to like to do was pour the mercury on the floor and hit it with a hammer, so it squirted all over the place. I lived in mercury.”

[TZ350]

I think I'll start on 400% and carefully work my way down ...

It is possible to run Methanol so rich that the motor runs to cold to evaporate all the Methanol so it in effect runs lean and richening it up more only results in a leaner A/F ratio.

The trick is to add Acetone (about 180 octane) to the Methanol so the motor runs warmer, warm enough to evaporate all the fuel. Modern unleaded now has so much nasty stuff in it that it probably will mix Ok with Methanol too.

Back in the day I ran my air cooled RD on a 50/50 mixture of Acetone and Methanol, the temperature was about right. But the mix required would be different for different motors. The point is to get/keep the motor at an appropriate operating temperature.

[lucf]

First of all, I have followed this fantastic source of knowledge presented here regarding two strokes and tuning. I am not an engine expert at all, (I wish I would have become a Jan, Frits or a Wobbly, et.al.) and I would rank myself at the most as a very average mechanical engineer. I am working in the supply chain for close to engine parts to automotive OEMs. Back in 1983 I did, however, finally manage to tune my GP125 to severably beat my friends RD125LCs. Yes! No driving alone anymore! What could I not have done with all the information here at the time..!?

I have followed the information coming out about Ryger for some time. I must say that I have not yet lost patience. I cannot believe that somebody would be so stupid to put so much energy and money into a project like that with the goal to, by intent, try and fool a number of engine buyers/financers. I believe it is an honest project, but that they do have run into some sort of problems (as we all do in development projects) along the way. And yes, unforseen problems can take time to fix. With relatively limited resources it takes even longer. For example, a part supplier fault made in the first pre series delivery, after the initial well functioning prototypes, can be a disaster for a time plan. Complete new durability tests and performance tests might have to be conducted (and most likely much much more work). This just as an example. I do not either expect that we will be given all the details about the function of the engine, and details how we can build our own Ryger engine. If I were Ryger I would also be very reluctant to give out any very detailed findings how everythings works together. I am grateful for all the FREE information given from you with the knowhow here, but I also respect the need for the Ryger company to protect their business case.

We can only wait and see what happens and hopefully we soon can get the information that gives us a better understanding of the Ryger concept, and a final conclusion/results if it really works.

Luc is enthusiastic, but could you really blame him?

Thanks Norman, he he .... at least one person who uses his brains !

And with those rude words Wobbly did, I'll never come back again, even though I have a hard proof !!

[adegnes]

It is possible to run Methanol so rich that the motor runs to cold to evaporate all the Methanol so it in effect runs lean and richening it up more only results in a leaner A/F.

The trick is to add Acetone (about 180 octane) to the Methanol so the motor runs warmer, warm enough to evaporate all the fuel. Modern unleaded now has so much nasty stuff in it that it probably will mix Ok with Methanol too.

Back in the day I ran my air cooled RD on a 50/50 mixture of Acetone and Methanol, the temperature was about right. But the mix required would be different for different motors. The point is to get/keep the motor at an appropriate operating temperature.

Thanks for the tip! Sure about that octane rating?

I came out on top this time, a little sanding and it'll be fine. The bore is unmarked, just reflections.

[lohring]

My first encounter with methanol/nitro in a moped.
Typical outcome.

Attachment 329317

Crossing fingers for minimal damage inside.

We tried running model boat fuel in a 26 cc gasoline engine a long time ago. We used a custom carb. The fuel has 20% oil. The engine ran fine on 15% nitro but had the same problem with 40%. The plug electrode dented the piston and exhaust port on the way out.

Lohring Miller