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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #25426
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    Touch of confusion in my mind about injector placement terminology. What they refer to as Indirect FI is simply manifold FI. What they refer to as direct FI is more transfer port injection (as Fletto points out above). However I will concede that it is pointed to the inside of the cylinder, so it can rightfully be classed as in-cylinder FI. Also into this classification would be where the injector is aiming directly into the cylinder from the bore, say even above exh port closure level
    Therefore, I would consider direct FI as one in which the injector discharges via the cylinder head and the injector is exposed to combustion conditions.
    Being overly pedantic ??

    Here's a bit more blurb on the KTM 2 stroke:

    http://newatlas.com/ktm-two-stroke-d...-enduro/48457/

  2. #25427
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Touch of confusion in my mind about injector placement terminology. What they refer to as Indirect FI is simply manifold FI. What they refer to as direct FI is more transfer port injection (as Fletto points out above). However I will concede that it is pointed to the inside of the cylinder, so it can rightfully be classed as in-cylinder FI. Also into this classification would be where the injector is aiming directly into the cylinder from the bore, say even above exh port closure level
    Therefore, I would consider direct FI as one in which the injector discharges via the cylinder head and the injector is exposed to combustion conditions.
    Being overly pedantic ??

    Here's a bit more blurb on the KTM 2 stroke:

    http://newatlas.com/ktm-two-stroke-d...-enduro/48457/
    Intersting point there Ken. one that makes the Bimota vdue a indirect set up, as it shot the injectors from the side of the cylinder toward the piston crown.
    orbital which you were involved with used compressed air to mix the charge didn't it, rather than a hot piston crown.
    I have a pic somewhere of the bimota set up i can't find a decent one on the net.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  3. #25428
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Intersting point there Ken. one that makes the Bimota vdue a indirect set up, as it shot the injectors from the side of the cylinder toward the piston crown... I have a pic somewhere of the bimota set up i can't find a decent one on the net.
    The Bimota Vdue shot the fuel straight into the cylinder. If that isn't direct injection, I don't know what is.
    I posted a couple of Bimota pictures some time ago but I don't know how to post a link to that post. Anyone?
    Anyway, here are those pics once again. The M10 bolt in the second picture indicates the injector direction.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #25429
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    Direct Injection

    True two-stroke stroke direct injection should not only inject the fuel directly into the cylinder but it should be feasible to do all the injection after the exhaust port close, hence preventing short circuiting of the fuel out of the exhaust port.

    The Bimota does not achieve the second criteria as the "injector ports" opens and closes at about the same time as the exhaust port and thus all injection takes place whilst the exhaust port is open.

    True direct injection engines such as the e-tec Evinrude outboards can inject all their fuel after the exhaust port closes and can even inject very late on the upstroke resulting in a stratified mixture - rich in the vicinity of the spark plug but lean everywhere else.

  5. #25430
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    Injecting all the fuel after exhaust closure would be nice, but it's not a requirement for qualifying as direct injection. If it were, not even the E-TEC engines would qualify. Injecting all their fuel after exhaust port closure is only feasible at light loads. At WOT, injection has to start much earlier in order to create a good mixture.
    The latest version, the E-TEC 850, even falls back on a couple of additional indirect injectors in order to counter this problem.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #25431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Injecting all the fuel after exhaust closure would be nice, but it's not a requirement for qualifying as direct injection. If it were, not even the E-TEC engines would qualify. Injecting all their fuel after exhaust port closure is only feasible at light loads. At WOT, injection has to start much earlier in order to create a good mixture.
    The latest version, the E-TEC 850, even falls back on a couple of additional indirect injectors in order to counter this problem.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Frits, I have been discussing the Evinrude Outboard engines which are very much true direct injection engines.

    For some reason you choose to discuss a snowmobile engine that has no relevance to the Evinrude outboard engine bar they share similar injection technology.

    I will repeat, the Bimota is not a true direct injection engine as it is not feasible to inject all the fuel at any load/speed point after exhaust port closure.

    The emission tests for outboard engines is infinitely more stringent compared to the rather tame emission requirements for snowmobile engines!

    I personally am interested in seeing two-stroke engines make a comeback in automotive applications but only true direct injection has a chance of achieving this. Any form of injection that does not allow all the fuel to be injected after exhaust port closure over at the very least the lower speed/lower load points will be a non starter.

  7. #25432
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic_v View Post
    For some reason you choose to discuss a snowmobile engine that has no relevance to the Evinrude outboard engine bar they share similar injection technology.
    I picked the most recent member of the E-TEC family because I think the addition of inlet tract injection after years of direct-only injection is revealing. They wouldn't have done that without a darn good reason. Maybe the more stringent emission rules prevent this modification for outboard engines, or maybe throttle response is less important in watercraft; I don't know.

    I will repeat, the Bimota is not a true direct injection engine as it is not feasible to inject all the fuel at any load/speed point after exhaust port closure.
    Then I must repeat that injecting all the fuel after exhaust closure, although desirable, is not essential to the definition of direct injection.
    I am not in any way trying to defend the way Bimota messed up this system; I'd just like to clarify the definition.

    Question: could you tell us at what crank angle injection starts in your Evinrude outboard engine at maximum power?

  8. #25433
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    28th November 2013 - 21:58
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    Can't remember where I got this from, but might be of some interest.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bimota Vdue sorted out.pdf  

  9. #25434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    The Bimota Vdue shot the fuel straight into the cylinder. If that isn't direct injection, I don't know what is.
    I posted a couple of Bimota pictures some time ago but I don't know how to post a link to that post. Anyone?
    Anyway, here are those pics once again. The M10 bolt in the second picture indicates the injector direction.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks for the pics.
    I was only following the Austrailian, Gallipoli all over again.
    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Touch of confusion in my mind about injector placement terminology. What they refer to as Indirect FI is simply manifold FI. What they refer to as direct FI is more transfer port injection (as Fletto points out above). However I will concede that it is pointed to the inside of the cylinder, so it can rightfully be classed as in-cylinder FI. Also into this classification would be where the injector is aiming directly into the cylinder from the bore, say even above exh port closure level
    Therefore, I would consider direct FI as one in which the injector discharges via the cylinder head and the injector is exposed to combustion conditions.
    Being overly pedantic ??
    Here is the pic i was looking for less colourful that yours though.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by guyhockley View Post
    Can't remember where I got this from, but might be of some interest.
    Nice document but even with all those minior tweaks mentioned the crankcase seals were alledgedly not the job and in a lot of cases the crankcases were highly porous. the origional cases also didn't have enough material to allow for a decent size seal to be fitted.
    The injectors used on the production bike were also different much spec than the preproduction and prototypes used.
    Despite order books that suggested Bimota would be turning out 500 units per year – a huge number for the tiny firm, particularly given the high price of the bike – in fact only 185 of the original, fuel-injected V-Dues were produced
    in 1999 built 26 carburetted, 91kW ‘Trofeo’ versions of the V-Due for a one-make race series.
    In a bankruptcy sale in 2003 a new group of investors bought the Bimota company, but the V-Due project – including the intellectual property, all the remaining stocks of unsold bikes and the ones that Bimota had bought back – was sold separately to former Bimota engineer Piero Caronni. He created the 2003 ‘Evoluzione’ version of the bike, with carbs, and later the ‘Evoluzione 04’ in 2004, with an extra 7.5kW. In total, 141 Evoluzione and Evoluzione 04 models were made, and Caronni also offered a service to convert original injected bikes to Evoluzione spec.
    As a last hurrah, Caronni’s company, V-Due SRL, created the 2005 Edizione Finale. This was a track-only version making as much as 97kW with a fully sorted carb-fed version of the engine.
    http://amcn.com.au/editorial/13291/
    Personally they are in my opinion one of the most beautiful bikes ever made. It was a gusty decision to make the bike for Bimota, shame it killed them off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  10. #25435
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Attachment 329318 Honda NSR250 MC21 cylinder.

    I could only take 2mm off the barrel and still have some water jacket sealing area left.

    Attachment 329319

    Needed minus 4mm so 2mm off barrel and 2mm off head. The head spigot is a very neat fit into the barrel, maybe 0.005".
    Thanks for that, food for thought...

  11. #25436
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    The ETEC has one function that exacerbates the problem of short circuiting of the mixture into the exhaust whilst its still open.
    It can easily create a stratified charge, wherein the mixture is lean below the port opening point and gets progressively richer as the piston approaches the firing point.
    This is clever as all buggery, but I did not realize that the latest version has auxiliary injectors,so even this super clever system has its problems with fully DI operation.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  12. #25437
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    Quote Originally Posted by schutten View Post
    We are going to see the engines perform at Kerpen next weekend ?
    Winning is more important than dyno numbers

    Well that went well Schutten - Kerpen in Holland, the first big race of the year has been run,and not one Ryger on the grid.
    Whats the new excuse I wonder - in a very un nasty way.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  13. #25438
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwePatrick View Post
    *lol*
    So you are entering this forum with great secrets as a bait.
    But will only tell if you are licked were the sun don´t shine?

    Made me laugh.
    Keep on!

    Remember: Third party dyno!
    Today is the first important kart race at Kerpen, near Holland.
    Not 1 Ryger competing......
    You would expect them to show their 66HP.
    But apparently nobody has bought an engine from them!
    This might end badly, with someone losing a lot of money.
    50 unsold engines......
    Future scrap.

    And indeed: a third party dyno would be the only way to convince people now.....

  14. #25439
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    22nd November 2013 - 16:32
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    Wow, lots of thoughts on injector position & timing. So for my mind, based on placement, there’s 2 fairly obvious types:
    1. Cylinder Bore Direct Injection (CHDI, covering the points and examples shown by Frits
    2. Cylinder Head Direct Injection (CHDI)
    Neither type distinguishes between the actual commencement of injection timing.

    However, what we or I or anyone wants to call it, it doesn’t make any real difference to anything.

    From (a fading) memory Orbital’s 2 fluid system, when on high power, commenced injection before BDC. This didn’t necessarily mean that unburnt fuel is lost out the irretrievably exhaust, both due to the injection into the scavenging air and also the gas dynamics due to the exhaust. In Orbital’s applications, the injector was placed towards the rear of the cylinder, directly facing the uprising scavenging flow path. For the lower load settings, the containment of the fuel was aided by a small bowl in the piston crown, this being on centre with the injector axis. This caused the fuel charge to reverse direction, back towards the plug and the offset combustion bowl in the head.

  15. #25440
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamathi View Post
    Today is the first important kart race at Kerpen, near Holland.
    Not 1 Ryger competing......
    You would expect them to show their 66HP.
    But apparently nobody has bought an engine from them!
    This might end badly, with someone losing a lot of money.
    50 unsold engines......
    Future scrap.


    And indeed: a third party dyno would be the only way to convince people now.....
    No need to further convince people. Luc said so, isn't that enough?

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