ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

Back as far as 2013 ThumperTalk was talking about a German mag that had shown a picture of a YZ250 cylinder with Fuel Injectors and were speculating that Yamaha were about to bring out a fuel injected YZ250 anytime soon.

They were wrong.

Neil Hintz had previously successfully fitted fuel injection to a Kawasaki 350 Bighorn.

https://youtu.be/ifSEql1X4R0 and https://youtu.be/eleqBGvOM4M

And the cylinder pictured by ThumperTalk is actually the one that Neil Hintz and Wayne Blackwood fitted to Wayne's bike.

https://youtu.be/UEQli7nuak4 and https://youtu.be/1YG9ko8-Nwk



The latest new KTM has fuel injectors in the self same position as Neil and Wayne did 5 years ago.

https://www.facebook.com/motostation...5289746293996/

Neil Hintz on FaceBook.

Injectors, same ports, same position!

You would have to say that KTM must have looked at the video of Wayne Blackwoods YZ250 that we set up on EFI. It looks identical but no drum valve throttle. I guess they will bring that out in a future model.

I'd had quite a conversation with a KTM representive a few years ago, about the time we got the YZ going.

He told me KTM would use something far more sophisticated than we had set up. Most probably Direct injection, he was wrong. Delayed TIP is clearly the way to go. I must give that rep a ring and rub it in.

Looks to me like Neil and Wayne successfully did big bore 2T EFI first. And certainly they were the first to be riding around at competitive events with them.

[koenich]

just found the attached pictures on instagram...interesting

[Frits Overmars]

Ktm persevered experimenting with the Orbital DI-system for quite some time despite the fact that it "did not perform well and sounded terrible".
About that same time some Orbital engineers visited Aprilia driving a Ford Fiesta with an Orbital two-stroke triple engine (derived from a Suzuki outboard).
The engine performed very well but it sounded as if it was in dire need of valve clearance adjustment.
Culprits were the big valves that admitted air to the combustion chambers. You could hear them rattle and their mass limited maximum rpm.


The injector layout of the middle KTM unit strongly reminds me of the Bimota V-due. It was called the V-didn't for a reason....

[TZ350]

Looks like KTM tried to do something more sophisticated like they told Neil Hints that they would. But eventually they found that the Kiwis already had a handle on it and KTM copied what was tried and true and already working properly in New Zealand.

[husaberg]

The injector layout of the middle KTM unit strongly reminds me of the Bimota V-due. It was called the V-didn't for a reason....

Did you read the stuff i posted about what tthe crowd in i think Texas had done with the V due
They identified it was a problem of a combination of poor seals and porus crankcase castings in combination to a last minute change to a less far sophisicated injector that were the main reason the bimota was erratic in running

It sounded very plausable, considering some of the bikes reponded to the updated softwear mapping, while some just refused to ever run correctly at all.

Bob Steinbugler of specialists Bimota Spirit in North Carolina says that, while switching to carbs solved some problems, the V-Due’s bigger issue was the crankcase seals.
“These seals were too small and not up to the task of sealing the crankshafts,” Steinbugler explains. “They would allow small amounts of air to be sucked past them, and that phenomenon in a two-stroke changes the mixture. The amount of air varied over time and from V-Due to V-Due, so it couldn’t be tuned out.
“For the Trofeo series, Bimota changed from fuel injection to carburettors initially and nothing really improved. Upon further observation they discovered the crankcase seal problem. This was a difficult problem to solve because there was not enough material in the crankcase castings to machine a pocket for a larger outside diameter seal to fit the crankshaft and seal it better. They used a seal that was the same outside diameter and had a smaller inside diameter, but to do this they had to machine down the ends of the crankshafts. This then led to some crankshaft failures.

“The main investment that Piero Caronni made was to go back to the foundry and have crankcases re-cast with a new design that added some material around the crankshaft holes to accept better seals. Once this was done, the bikes became predictable and consistent. The fuel-injection system still suffered from lack of development time – the original prototypes used fuel-injectors supplied by Ferrari and were precise in the range that the V-Due required. For the production versions these were not available, so they went to a production injector and these were not precise enough at the low volume end and did not have enough mapping development to sort them out really well.

[ken seeber]

WHAT ELSE CAN WE SAY:-----------------------

[Frits Overmars]

The last thing I'd want to do is to turn this forum into a Facebook-clone, but sometimes it would be nice to have a 'Like'-button. Like right now .

[Peter1962]

The last thing I'd want to do is to turn this forum into a Facebook-clone, but sometimes it would be nice to have a 'Like'-button. Like right now .

I think that Stefan Pierer at least should invite Flettner to austria and not only to eat Wiener Schnitzel or Schweinsbraten, and Apfelstrudel for desert, but to thank him for the inspiration that he gave the KTM engineers who were silently lurking the kiwibiker forum

If Pierer is a clever guy, he will offer Flettner a 300 cc injected bike for free, for development work and ask him kindly if he would be prepared to check the quality of work that his copycat engineers produced. And maybe thow in some budget to buy some nice trousers.

[Haufen]

The last thing I'd want to do is to turn this forum into a Facebook-clone, but sometimes it would be nice to have a 'Like'-button. Like right now .

There is one, right next to the "blog this post" below each post.
Let's hope Neil does not make it too hard for other OEMs to keep up with his current project.

[TZ350]

I would very much like to see modern engine management and EFI applied to 2T's.

Orbital

From Timothy Carl Hickox – Experimental Motorcycle Association.

It has been more than 30 years since Orbital introduced their Direct Fuel Injection system. It is still in production. It has proven to be reliable and to provide fuel consumption and exhaust emissions better than a four-stroke engine (of equal performance). (I refer here to engines, not to tailpipe emissions, which depend on catalysis.) Their design used compressed air to inject a dense air/fuel mixture at the cylinder head. A few years later, we had another option: E-TEC. This originated with Markus Ficht, in Spannleitenberg, Germany.

He invented a different system to use on the two-stroke engines that he was building. (Ficht was an innovator; I wish we knew more about him and his work.) Outboard Marine Corporation saw the potential and bought his company to acquire the patent on the injector. Why they decided to go this independent route, rather than use Orbital’s technology, is unclear. Maybe they didn’t want to pay royalties to Orbital, or maybe they just wanted complete control over the adaptation and evolution of the system. The Ficht system made use of a hydraulic hammer.

The line pressure was low, maybe 50-psi. A small quantity of fuel was then “hammered” by an accelerated piston that compressed the fuel up to about 1000-psi, at which pressure it entered the cylinder. This is called a solid-injection system (i.e. no air). After much development, the Ficht injectors went into production, but some problems were still unresolved. A second phase of development made the system trouble free, and OMC changed the name from “Ficht” to “E-TEC”.

One advantage of E-TEC over Orbital is that the former does not require a battery for starting. Decades of use have proven the efficacy and efficiency of these two direct-injection systems. The marine engines that use these must meet both air- and water-pollution standards – and the space limitations on outboards do not permit the use of catalysis to clean up a dirty engine. I go over all this history in order to explain that two-stroke engines could have been and can be used in road-going motorcycles anytime a manufacturer wants to adopt the available technology (or develop something of comparable performance). That no one is doing so does not mean that some unapproachable technology is needed.

[F5 Dave]

I presume marine applications usually means lots of constant state throttle and in my ignorance presumably throttle response can be lethargic with little penalty as there has to be lag getting the water to comply . Whether these systems are masked in this environment? I don't know.

[jasonu]

Looks like KTM tried to do something more sophisticated like they told Neil Hints that they wanted to do. But eventually they found that the Kiwis already had a handle on it and KTM copied what was tried and true and already working properly in New Zealand.

Not bad for a country with only 4 million people.....

[SwePatrick]

My buttugly racer has met some development in the looks
A couple of heatcyckles more and i´ll se what it produces on the dyno.
Everythings new in the engine.
Bearings,crank,cylinder,piston.
I have ported the cylinder som more also.
Switch to methanol has been done.

It has been started since the pic was taken

[Grumph]

I presume marine applications usually means lots of constant state throttle and in my ignorance presumably throttle response can be lethargic with little penalty as there has to be lag getting the water to comply . Whether these systems are masked in this environment? I don't know.

No - marine applications do have some odd requirements but instant response is definitely required.

The old 2 stroke powerheads had some unusual ignition features to make them work. Timing was very much throttle position related. To the point that a slow trolling throttle might actually run very retarded - but give it a handful, and there's a heap of advance comes in.

[husaberg]

The last thing I'd want to do is to turn this forum into a Facebook-clone, but sometimes it would be nice to have a 'Like'-button. Like right now .

star shaped button at the bottom of each post Frits is user reputation
Think of it as a like and dislike button.

And maybe thow in some budget to buy some nice trousers.

Neil would go for Lederhosen