ESE's works engine tuner

[mitch meyer]

I find it interesting that lots of the 125 kart engines seem to use flywheels of around 90mm diameter and 18-20mm crankpins, as does the X30 Super Shifter 175 (63.5 x 54.5 bore and stroke, from memory). Hydroplane racing motors seem to like flat disc disc wheels with a bolt on balance weight.
http://www.grmracing.com/125-parts
Scroll down to G1020 and G1028.
Wonder what the plate is made of?

I have GRM 125, plate material is mild steel and held in place with 3 countersunk screws.

[TZ350]

page 1750 links list.

... some may find this useful. Rather than use the site search which usually fails, use Google so to search this site use an ordinary search phrase and after it add

site:www.kiwibiker.co.nz

for example

Frits priceless site:www.kiwibiker.co.nz
or
Frits pisa site:www.kiwibiker.co.nz

the same will work for other sites with the appropriate site address

Mick

A lot of decade pages have small collections of interesting quotes.

The pages listed below have bigger collections of interesting quotes and useful links.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...tuner/page1700

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...tuner/page1500

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...tuner/page1000

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...-tuner/page750

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...-tuner/page500

Page ..... 1500.... How to search within the ESE mega-thread?

There are over 7000 images on this thread, use "Thread Tools" to view them and then click through to the original post about them.

If you are looking for 2T tuning technical information. Because this is a show and tell thread, this thread is best read backwards, ie start at the last page and read back towards the beginning that way you get to read the answer without having to wade through the confused questions.

A lot of the decade pages have collections of quotes and links to interesting things.

Page 1500 Links List.
Page 1490 Wiseco vis other pistons discussion.
Page 1480 Discussion with data maps about why Marshengs bike runs hotter in the corners.
Page 1470 Wiseco vis other pistons and their short comings.
Page 1460 Page talks about HCCI. Bike catches fire at Wanganui Cemetery RR.
Page 1450 Working with pumper carbs.
Page 1440 The insides of the Ryger is revealed on this page.
Page 1430 Pumper carb tuning talk.
Page 1420 The Frepan TZ400 built by Wobbly. Lots of links and pictures.
Page 1410 Air/Fuel ratio meter and how to use a Lambda sensor with a two stroke.
Page 1400 2:1 Pipes, and the power advantages of cutting the Ex side of the piston short.
Page 1390 EngMod2T, simulating and testing pipe designs.
Page 1380 Dyno results, testing different sized air correction jets.
Page 1370 Links to Rod/Piston kits and parts suppliers.
Page 1360 Dyno results for some F5 Bucket 50cc bikes.
Page 1350 To much talk about the Ryger so celebrating the work other people are doing in their sheds.
Page 1340 Frits on why the ring peg should be at the 6 o’clock position.
Page 1330 Peoples interesting projects.
Page 1320 Links to Rods and Pistons technical data.
Page 1310 Celebrating Kels very neat and rather quick KR125/RS project.
Page 1300 Celebrating peoples home built racing projects.
Page 1290 People doing real Bucket building stuff. Ryger uses up a lot of space from here on.
Page 1280 Links to Peewee’s, Lightbulbs, Adegnes’s and Ken Seebers racing projects.
Page 1270 Transfer Port Theory.
Page 1260 Ex and Transfer port design with pictures.
Page 1250 Links List
Page 1240 2T development Software, Port Theory, Interesting Sites
Page 1230 Compression Ratio, Ex duct shape and length, Fancy spark plugs.
Page 1220 Reed Valve Petals, Oxygen Sensors, Exhaust duct step at the pipe flange.
Page 1210 Ignition Trigger Woes, EngMod 2T and Blow-Down, Fuelling Curve.
Page 1200 Frits on power spread and the ratio of the maximum and minimum points in the power band.
Page 1190 No data, but a lot of talk about what the Ryger engine might look like.
Page 1180 Frits on 2T fuel consumption. M50 cylinder portmap and EngMod2T analysis.
Page 1170 Engine/Gearbox oils and bearings. Transfer duct shape and optimal Ex port timing.
Page 1160 Frits - Engines need large crankcase volumes, Power vis Handling.
Page 1150 Serious talk about crankcase volume.
Page 1140 Measuring the transfer duct length, Ignitec, Expansion chamber design, Trombone pipe.
Page 1130 Team GPR Edgecumbe Videos …. Cooling 2T’s …. 3xEx vis T port,
Page 1120 Crank Balancing, Ceramic Coating, Plugs, Piston Edge chamfers, RS125 pipe dimensions.
Page 1110 TeeZees progress on the EFI thing with the Beast.
Page 1100 No Data but some talk about pickups and EngMod 2T transducer position in the pipe.
Page 1090 Links about the Detonation Sensor and Temperature Data Logger.
Page 1080 No Data, the plenum is protested, Frits on Blowdown and Transfer window height.
Page 1070 Exhaust Duct shape, Kawasaki and BRC EFI dyno videos.
Page 1060 No Data but talk about Port shape and Flow in a duct on this page.
Page 1050 EngMod2T setup talk about pipes, transfer ports and the TubMax graph.
Page 1040 Basics of pipe design and how to influence where the point of maximum depression occurs.
Page 1030 Racing at Greymouth, its well worth a look to see Team GPR in action.
Page 1020 Pipe dimensions, Seattle Smittys hydroplanes. Husaburgs piston link.
Page 1010 Suspension Tuning.

Page 1000 has a lot of useful information and links. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130773139

On Page 500, Bucket has links to how Team ESE built their Suzuki GP125 26, 28 and 31 hp engines:- http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...-tuner/page500

Starting from the beginning I have been trying to find the posts that talk about pipes and collate and edit them. There is heaps of it, mostly from Wobbly and pages 620 630 640 650 660 670 680 690 700 710 720 730 740 750 760 770 780 1040 and 1050 have un edited collections of raw material.

[TZ350]

page 1750 links list to go here:- B



The two basic items needed for adapting a NSR125 or 250 cylinder to the bottom end of your choice to make a go fast water cooled Bucket engine.

Class racing rules for F4 (Buckets) have water cooled two strokes at 100cc with maximum (re bore) oversize at 110cc and two strokes over 104cc are limited to a single 24mm carb or equivalent

De-stroked crank, 48mm stroke for 110cc and 44.5mm for 100cc. Other cylinders like the RGV250, RG250, Aprilia 125 are possibilities too.

Page 1680 has all the detail you might want to know. https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...tuner/page1680

Scratch around and follow the links on page 1680, there is a lot of build information to be found.

Ignition generator details are on page 1681 https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...tuner/page1681

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1131047135

Other links to NSR tuning info.

http://nsr-world.com/tuning/250-tuning/engine/

http://thetrxproject.blogspot.co.nz/...e-top-end.html

https://performance-engineering.co.uk/nsr-specialists/

https://performance-engineering.co.u...oke-tuning.php

A Suzuki GP100 fitted with an un-modified NSR250 cylinder is good for 28 rwhp.

[TZ350]

page 1750 links list to go here:- C

[wobbly]

There are some very knowledgeable people out there that completely disagree with Me, Frits and Jan about the Ex duct cooling principle.
Roland Holzer in his last iteration of the Modena kart engine made the duct alot shorter, saying that this allowed the pipe ( header,spigot ) to heat up faster
when exiting corners.
Franco at TM has a radical new design in CAD that completely insulates the duct from water cooling with an air gap.
I plan on completely disproving the whole hot duct idea ( or making an idiot of myself ) by very soon having a brand new TM cylinder ceramic coated inside the duct.
This coating surface will be VERY hot where in contact with the retained air/fuel charge.
Doing exactly this process on the Britten made a heap of power, and doubled the water boil time when the bike was warmed up ( as the small rad was ducted correctly
for forward motion,not sitting still ).
It will have only one of two results on the 2T - 125 , instant detonation due to overheated gas being pushed back into the cylinder, or the engine will make more power due to
more heat energy being transferred into the pipe.
Just a very small maybe - would be both effects occur simultaneously. But deto kills engines,so that trumps the other effect every time.
The dyno will not lie,as will the deto sensor on the head.
Even if I am wrong I WILL tell everyone the result,as it has caused some very heated ( pun intended ) discussion, with lots of Italian arm waving in the process.
And of course I would REALLY love to finally prove that The Great Leader was talking out his arse about a hotter duct being better - though he sort of already did that with
his Chinese funded fiasco.

Re the GRM crank with add on web plates.
This is exactly what some new R&D idiots did to the Aprilia after Jan retired - sadly for them it suddenly lost a heap of power.
In a reed engine there is a bottom limit to the case volume that sits at around 1.3 in my experience.
The RV engine loves additional volume than that,so removing the plates on the GRM reed,and using Mallory may not work if the case becomes too big.

[lodgernz]

Mikuni TM24 with horrible manifold bent in two planes, versus Keihin TA26 with straight-line entry square on to reed block.
Which will give the best performance?
Don't know until I get some dyno time, but I'm guessing the TA.
Appears to be from an MVX250 or an NS400, and was donated/loaned by F5Dave, and originally a gift from Yow Ling.
Thank you Dave and Mike.
I have to say, it's a bloody big carb for a 50, only clears the frame by 2mm. Probably the same casting they use for the 36mm carb.

[Grumph]

Did you check for dribble at steep angles ? I mocked up my pair the other day and found that even with the tracts dead vertical there seemed to be no weeping from the pilots...I'll be using mine with the top covers pretty well horizontal - so back a bit from full vertical downdraft.

[husaberg]

Mikuni TM24 with horrible manifold bent in two planes, versus Keihin TA26 with straight-line entry square on to reed block.
Which will give the best performance?
Don't know until I get some dyno time, but I'm guessing the TA.
Appears to be from an MVX250 or an NS400, and was donated/loaned by F5Dave, and originally a gift from Yow Ling.
Thank you Dave and Mike.
I have to say, it's a bloody big carb for a 50, only clears the frame by 2mm. Probably the same casting they use for the 36mm carb.

Easy to adapt to tps as well as the later models had it as std.

[WilDun]

Hi guys .I have just come across this in a motoring magazine that comes to work
Cant see it working to be quite honest

I believe it has been working for quite a while - the guy who designed it is an (ex) South African racing car driver turned Aussie. Like all these breakthroughs, even though they work, they still have to break through the wall of "status quo".

[Jannem]

I plan on completely disproving the whole hot duct idea ( or making an idiot of myself ) by very soon having a brand new TM cylinder ceramic coated inside the duct.
This coating surface will be VERY hot where in contact with the retained air/fuel charge.

Will be very interesting to hear what it did. Makes me wonder though, whether it's close enough apples to apples, because that coating is an insulator that reflects heat rather than absorbs it, and its thermal mass is very small for whatever it absorbs. So you might actually get hotter exhaust, cooler intake charge in ex duct, as well as cooler bore. Possibly.

So, I'm betting a bottle of Koskenkorva, that you'll make more power, but it's not because hot exhaust duct idea works.😊

[diesel62]

I believe it has been working for quite a while - the guy who designed it is an (ex) South African racing car driver turned Aussie. Like all these breakthroughs, even though they work, they still have to break through the wall of "status quo".

If it runs on straight petrol as the article about says. How do they lubricate the piston? The bore is sealed from the crankcase

[WilDun]

If it runs on straight petrol as the article about says. How do they lubricate the piston? The bore is sealed from the crankcase

I believe that the design allows seepage through the gland between the crankcase and cylinder, it is not totally sealed - the piston being straight line ( not having sidethrust forces ) requires minimal lubrication. (how that works I don't know, but it's not my theory, however I did read that somewhere re: this engine).
Probably, like many glands, they have multiple 'chevron'' type seals and so seal one way but allow seepage the other way.

Here is a link which says that he is a bit cagey about how the piston is lubricated, it might be as I mentioned but it might also have oil fed through small passages inside the piston to the periphery - who knows?

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12589

[diesel62]

I believe that the design allows seepage through the gland between the crankcase and cylinder, it is not totally sealed - the piston being straight line ( not having sidethrust forces ) requires minimal lubrication. (how that works I don't know, but it's not my theory, however I did read that somewhere re: this engine).
Probably, like many glands, they have multiple 'chevron'' type seals and so seal one way but allow seepage the other way.

Here is a link which says that he is a bit cagey about how the piston is lubricated, it might be as I mentioned but it might also have oil fed through small passages inside the piston to the periphery - who knows?

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12589

Thanks that opens a whole lot more questions ☺️

[oldjohnno]

Will be very interesting to hear what it did. Makes me wonder though, whether it's close enough apples to apples, because that coating is an insulator that reflects heat rather than absorbs it, and its thermal mass is very small for whatever it absorbs. So you might actually get hotter exhaust, cooler intake charge in ex duct, as well as cooler bore. Possibly.

So, I'm betting a bottle of Koskenkorva, that you'll make more power, but it's not because hot exhaust duct idea works.😊

Imagine it's a hot day, say 35deg outside. Out in the yard lies a steel crowbar and a wooden handled shovel; they've both been in the sun for hours so they are both around the same temperature. But you just know that the crowbar is going to heat your hands up a hell of a lot more than the wooden shovel handle which won't hurt at all. I think the coating might be like the wooden handle - very hot but with a low thermal mass and a relatively low capacity to transfer that heat.

I should also mention that any work involving a large crowbar is inadvisable regardless of the weather....

[Haufen]

There are some very knowledgeable people out there that completely disagree with Me, Frits and Jan about the Ex duct cooling principle.
Roland Holzer in his last iteration of the Modena kart engine made the duct alot shorter, saying that this allowed the pipe ( header,spigot ) to heat up faster
when exiting corners.
Franco at TM has a radical new design in CAD that completely insulates the duct from water cooling with an air gap.
I plan on completely disproving the whole hot duct idea ( or making an idiot of myself ) by very soon having a brand new TM cylinder ceramic coated inside the duct.
This coating surface will be VERY hot where in contact with the retained air/fuel charge.
Doing exactly this process on the Britten made a heap of power, and doubled the water boil time when the bike was warmed up ( as the small rad was ducted correctly
for forward motion,not sitting still ).
It will have only one of two results on the 2T - 125 , instant detonation due to overheated gas being pushed back into the cylinder, or the engine will make more power due to
more heat energy being transferred into the pipe.
Just a very small maybe - would be both effects occur simultaneously. But deto kills engines,so that trumps the other effect every time.
The dyno will not lie,as will the deto sensor on the head.
Even if I am wrong I WILL tell everyone the result,as it has caused some very heated ( pun intended ) discussion, with lots of Italian arm waving in the process.

That's an interesting question,

How are you going to test this? Under which conditions? Steady state? Dynamic? Laptimes? And which parameters of the engine do you plan to change during the comparison?

I suppose a very well cooled exhaust port transfers about 8 hp more heat into the coolant which should then raise an engine temperature of 40 deg to about 44 deg. So as a starting point, the engine with the well cooled exhaust has a disadvantage of about half a pony or so. The question is then, can you gain more than that by throwing advance and compression at it until the same level of deto is reached? Probably yes, but the engine might need a shorter pipe first. If you can also run leaner this should recover some of the exhaust heat.

Is it really desirable to have the pipe heat up as fast as possible? If the heat up characteristic matches the track and the gearing this could also give an advantage due to a wider dynamic powerband, couldn't it?

The more I think about it, the more parameters come to my mind. This seems like at least a full week of testing if planned and executed thoroughly. I am looking forward to the outcome!