ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

In 1965 Kreidler had a 50cc TURBO CHARGED 2 stroke that took the world 50cc world speed record 225km/h

http://www.myvideo.at/watch/3468062/...ccm_Kompressor

They also made a gp racer too
http://www.kreidler-museum.de/kreidler-werksmuseum.htm

I don’t see a turbocharger

Translated for me by an automated German English translator.

Kompressor = Compressor
Rennmotorrad = Racing motorcycle
für Weltrekordfahrten = for world record journeys
Anscheid, van Dongen = Anscheid, station-wagon Dongen

So it’s a supercharged racing motorcycle for a world record attempt.

Still not a turbocharged 2-stroke, take a good look at the picture.

[TZ350]

.

Ask any Boy Racer and he will be able to tell you what a turbocharger is.

And FYI centrifugal pumps are something different and are as old as the hills. The principal is most commonly seen about the place being used in water pumps. A centrifugal pump has an impeller and usually a scroll housing.

To give you an idea, examples of centrifugal air pumps that I can quickly think of from that era are vacuum cleaners, old hand cranked forge blowers, ventilation blowers, scavenging blowers on industrial and marine 2-stroke engines.

The centrifugal air pump can be driven directly by an internal combustion engine through a step-up gear train, or by an electric motor or even by a steam turbine. There must be many ways to drive a centrifugal pump.

We have the impeller from one at work that is spun at 30,000 rpm by a large electric motor through a step-up gearbox. The bearings are very fussy about the quality of their oil and fail quickly if the impeller is slightly out of balance or someone has not topped it up with the correct lubricant, the impeller looks like a turbo charger impeller.

Air Pumps are blowers or compressors depending on their use, blowers for ventilation and compressors for pressure.

The Roots mine ventilation blower (Roots Blower) became a compressor (supercharger) when some clever bloke like Thomas bolted one onto an internal combustion engine.

And centrifugal air compressors were used on WW2 fighter aircraft as superchargers and that might be the type of supercharger (Kompressor) used on the kreidler.

A turbocharger that would be recognized by a boy racer is a centrifugal air compressor driven by an exhaust gas turbine.

There were two developments that allowed the manufacture of high revving 100,000 150,000 + rpm exhaust gas turbine driven centrifugal air pumps (turbochargers) on a commercial scale. One was new quality steel that could withstand the temperatures of the exhaust for the turbine and the other was the concept of a floating bush for a main bearing that rides on a cushion of oil to damp out the small but destructive vibrations from the rotating assembly.

I don’t think these two important developments that made turbochargers possible were known in the 50’s and 60’s, do you.

Some pictures like I have posted where you can see the exhaust pipe entering the turbine or translated text that show the Kompressor is a centrifugal air pump driven by an exhaust gas turbine and you have a turbocharged 2-stroke motorcycle otherwise its just another 2-stroke with a Kompressor.

In 1965 Kreidler had a 50cc TURBO CHARGED 2 stroke...........

I was well aware of the supercharged racing DKW, the supercharged Kriedlers are new and interesting but I can't see a Kriedler with a turbocharger in your post.

Driving the air pump impeller by an exhaust gas turbine connected to the exhaust pipe ( a turbocharger) was the point of my post.

Did Kriedler or any of the others you claim were "turbocharged" have one of those arrangements in the 50's or 60's?

Scanned articles or pictures from a book would be interesting................PDF's can be uploaded to KiwiBiker

Or could you have confused the high speed impeller of a centrifugal Kompressor with a turbine........ impellers drive.....turbines are driven.......

[SS90]

Ever seen a Mercedes with a Kompressor badge on the boot?

I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

[SS90]

Anscheid, van Dongen = Anscheid, station-wagon Dongen



picture.

That's some ones name.... Anschied translates as "starring" or "featuring" and Van Dongen was the sir name of the Dutch rider........

You need a better translating program.

The context was " Featuring Van Dongen"

Not "station wagon dongen"

The Internet is not always right Teezee.....

[SS90]

Here Is a thought..... If no one was doing it nil recently..... What technology has changed to make it possible that was not available say .......50 years ago?

Don't think I am trying to discourage you, quite the opposite, but as I said a year ago, for decades highly specialized experts have spend thousands of hours working their entire careers on something most people have as a hobby, and they had resources that even in today's world are enviable.

Perhaps I could refer you to some Turbo Vespa links?????

I will ask around if anyone I know has knowledge of some English language sites that are worth a look..... Although I am willing to bet they are all American ones (yawn).

You never know, you may learn something from "Motto Scotters" (sic).....

[TZ350]

I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

A picture of one like I posted would be good, got any good books you could scan.....

[TZ350]

Here Is a thought..... If no one was doing it nil recently..... What technology has changed to make it possible that was not available say .......50 years ago?.

You should read my post, its explained there.............

[TZ350]

You need a better translating program.......

True but it was free and did the business.........

The Internet is not always right Teezee.....

That's also true......as there is at least one out there that talks with more enthusiasm than knowledge...........

I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

and I am interested.......... can you back your claim of turbocharged 2-strokes from the 50's 60's up? with a picture or two from one of your books or a friends library maybe.......

I am keen to see a picture of an early 2-stroke with an air pump impeller driven by an exhaust gas turbine connected directly to the exhaust pipe, to wit, a turbocharger.

[TZ350]

Don't think I am trying to discourage you......

No, never for a moment thought you might be trying to discourage me...................but this thread does seem to go more smoothly when we ignore you as a time waster.

I have known about the mechanically driven supercharger on the racing DKW for as long as I can remember and have recently been interested in whether a 2-stroke could be supercharged with a proper turbocharger, now I believe it can and was the whole point of my original post.

OK you have emphatically claimed turbocharged 2-stroke motorcycles are nothing new, so now, show us a picture of an early 2-stroke with a centrifugal air pump who's impeller is driven by an exhaust gas turbine connected directly to the exhaust pipe, to wit, a turbocharger and existed in the 50's 60's like you say they did.........or could you have been overexcited and blowing hot air yourself............

There are people who read this thread in the hope of learning something useful and I write it for the same reason, I learn as I go along.

Its only in the interests of robust debate, but I expect we are all interested to see if you can back up your claim that's been expressed so stridently or if we should just take your assurances and whatever else you have said about tuning in general with just a little pinch of salt..........

[TZ350]

Ever seen a Mercedes with a Kompressor badge on the boot? I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's.....

Was it some advertising copy writer from the make it look good department that put the Kompressor badge on the boot?

Although the Merc is turbocharged I suspect that Kompressor or compressor is just a generic German term for supercharger, just like people sometimes use blower for supercharger and that does not tell you anything about what sort of supercharger, roots, screw, vane or turbo to name a few, is being referred too.

If Abgasturbolader is German for exhaust gas turbocharger then unlike the Merc the Kompressor 2-strokes from the 50’s 60’s you talk about are not necessarily turbocharged, they could be supercharged in any manner of other ways. Show me where Kompressor definativly means turbocharged in German, like Turbocharged means turbocharger in English.

I am very interested in this and am looking forward to some more info, and photos………..no more hiding behind smoke and mirrors please.

Anyway, whatever the outcome of how it was done, those supercharged Kriedlers are interesting, I hadn't seen them before.

And the clip of the Kompressor 50 at speed that you posted sounds very mean. http://www.myvideo.at/watch/3468062/...ccm_Kompressor once again I am impressed by the good quality and interesting stuff that can be found on the net.........thank you......

[SS90]

Meh, just put me back on your ignore list Teezee.

Plenty of others are happy with my input.

You fail to recognise that way way way before the Internet was even a word, people in NZ where making some really cool (fast) buckets on no budget and good old fashioned books and Experience.

I assure you faster buckets have been built that yours 20 years ago.

You are actually relatively new to buckets, and you often come of as condescending when presenting items you have simply googled and read, not actually experienced.

[gatch]

While it's quite possibly true there were faster buckets, why is this relevant ?

Are you just being a dick because you can't evidence your claims ?

Dunno about anyone else but I like reading the links posted up in here, if you had some useful links to post I'd probably read them too..

[Bert]

not that old but:
turbo Arpilia rs50
http://buddfab.net/buddfabhomepage.html

crazy French scooter people:
http://magazine.maxiscoot.com/Franca...bocompresseur/

I'd suggest using Google translator works fine for most webpages and forums (including japan):
http://translate.google.com

I do have some strange recall of my old man talking about crazy 50cc gp bikes out of the eastern block running turbo like systems in the old days (and compressors/superchargers). looking at pictures it wouldn't be beyond a home engineer. would this be against the rules on a 100cc twostroke?? all one would need is a electronic mapped "powerjet" (read injector) to sort out the rather likely lean running at high revs.

I've just found this forum and have been reading this thread, might be some info in here??
http://forums.autosport.com/lofivers...t98711-50.html

heres a link to the 50cc land speed records
www.elsberg-tuning.dk/recordbikes.html (note it will take over EI8? use mozilla)

but here is the smallest turbo i could find (five minutes of google time):
http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/SMALLEST.jpg

[TZ350]

.

Thanks Bert, very interesting stuff http://forums.autosport.com/lofivers...98711-700.html and thanks for the translator, it confirmed what I thought.

[TZ350]

While it's quite possibly true there were faster buckets, why is this relevant ? Are you just being a dick because you can't evidence your claims ? Dunno about anyone else but I like reading the links posted up in here, if you had some useful links to post I'd probably read them too..

Thanks Gatch for your interest in the posts. Team ESE are well aware that there has been a whole generation of fast buckets before, but that was then and this is now and we are enjoying finding out how to do it too. With 21 RWHP for my 125 and 22.5 for Chambers 100, I think we are getting there. We know it takes more than just hp to make a successful bucket and I think we are getting to grips with that too.

Yes I think its important to share the info around and be able to backup ones claims, I got the full bullshit treatment today by someone who should have known better, I don't think we will be seeing any confirmation of SS's claims any time soon, but you get that with the talkers that just want to be noticed.

Whatever, those old supercharged Kriedlers, and other racing 50's, great bikes, just love em..... http://forums.autosport.com/lofivers...98711-700.html