ESE's works engine tuner

[jamathi]

I think Luc will not write on this forum for a while

Maybe Harry Gerrits has finally understood he has been misled by Luc.
Convinced by e real track test.....
2.5 seconds a lap is quite some difference!

[husaberg]

Maybe Harry Gerrits has finally understood he has been misled by Luc.
Convinced by e real track test.....
2.5 seconds a lap is quite some difference!

You are naughty Mr Thiel
If you don't watch out Luc with abuse you as well about giving out Harry unspokens name, citing some imaginary private message he claims to have sent you asking it not to be revealed as well.
Mabye in the test session where the Ryger was slower than the TM it was on account of not using a Official RYGER stopwatch.

[jamathi]

You are naughty Mr Thiel
If you don't watch out Luc with abuse you as well about giving out Harry unspokens name, citing some imaginary private message he claims to have sent you asking it not to be revealed as well.
Mabye in the test session where the Ryger was slower than the TM it was on account of not using a Official RYGER stopwatch.

I do NOT mean to be naughty to anyone, ever, Husaberg.
Most people who know me personally will confirm this I think.
But I don't like lies, and people misleading others...
Your remark about the stopwatch could be right!

[SwePatrick]

They did not even have a dyno when they claimed 70HP.
Power was calculated on a computer.
Later they got a dyno, and the results were not as expected.....
They thought the dyno was at fault, and wanted to send it back to the manufacturer!
But obviously the fault is in the engine.....

Just change my word 'dyno' to 'software'.
Then all is correct again.

[JanBros]

figured the Ryger out. Luc is right : you have to think outside the box and than it's all very obvious.
The Ryger is not based on thermodynamics, but on the dead-horse principle :

[TZ350]

The Ecotrons EFI Alpha-N map load increases in 16 steps. So some time ago I used a flow meter to find the 16 TPS positions that equated to 16 even increases in airflow.

The curve followed this throttle plate curve I found on the net. I guess the offset is due to my curve starting at a slightly open position for the idle air.



Interesting that 50% of airflow happens at 20% TP throttle position. The green shaded area is the area I am having most trouble with getting the engine response with the EFI Alpha-N map right.



A series of dyno runs from 100% throttle down to the 20% green line. Also interesting that 50% air did not make 50% power. I don't understand that, I would have expected 50% air would equal 50% power.

The areas below 20% throttle represent a very small area on this collection of graphs but I have found it to be a huge problem on the track with throttle response. They also represent half the steps on the Alpha-N map.

When everyone knows big power is at WOT who would have thought that so much importance was in that first bit of barely opening the throttle.

[SwePatrick]

A series of dyno runs from 100% throttle down to the 20% green line. Also interesting that 50% air did not make 50% power. I don't understand that, I would have expected 50% air would equal 50% power.

There are always losses in friction and heat transportation so the curve of powergain is seldom equal to air usage.

[husaberg]

The Ecotrons EFI Alpha-N map load increases in 16 steps. So some time ago I used a flow meter to find the 16 TPS positions that equated to 16 even increases in airflow.

The curve followed this throttle plate curve I found on the net. I guess the offset is due to my curve starting at a slightly open position for the idle air.



Interesting that 50% of airflow happens at 20% TP throttle position. The green shaded area is the area I am having most trouble with getting the engine response with the EFI Alpha-N map right.



A series of dyno runs from 100% throttle down to 20% green line. Also interesting that 50% air did not make 50% power. I don't understand that, I would have expected 50% would equal 50% power.

The areas below 20% throttle represent a very small area on this collection of graphs but are a huge problem on the track with throttle response. They also represent half the steps on the map.

Who would have thought that so much importance was in that first bit of barely opening the throttle.

Back when programmable EFI was in its infancy they used to save room and data and more importantly time, by using the multiple smaller steps only in problem areas if that makes sense.
ie they did a basic map much like a 4 circuit carb pilot, cutaway, needle, main.
then used the rest of the 16 steps to full in the areas where it stumbled
smaller engines and single and twins and rotaries were far less forgiving then 4 and 8's.
I remember Riley Will saying something on Pitlane about someone (Aprilia i think) basically plotting the flow of a carb and then recreating it with the efi, to get rid of the twitchiness.

[ken seeber]

Didn't old mate Harold Bartol in the early days of injection use a carb for all low end / transitional operation and then just use the injector to fulfil the main jet operational areas? I guess this was cos the computing /software /hardware at that time didn't have the resolution & speed to match the "analogue" nature of the carb.

[lucf]

Maybe Harry Gerrits has finally understood he has been misled by Luc.
Convinced by e real track test.....
2.5 seconds a lap is quite some difference!

Yes Jan, that is really quite some difference.

But what you don't seem to know from your reliable witness is:
that the Ryger was almost 2,5 sec quicker than the TM KZ10c special.

So the opposite of your very well known "reliable witness"

And it was driven on the track of Pottendijk at Emmen last sunday Sept 3th, 2017
So make your witness known, because someone likes to change the real story.

[Greg85]

Yes Jan, that is really quite some difference.

But what you don't seem to know from your reliable witness is:
that the Ryger was almost 2,5 sec quicker than the TM KZ10c special.

So the opposite of your very well known "reliable witness"

And it was driven on the track of Pottendijk at Emmen last sunday Sept 3th, 2017
So make your witness known, because someone likes to change the real story.

hello mr Lucf, i think if your engine is 2.5 s faster than the tmkz10c special, you do not think everyone would have one for this weekend for the world cup has wackersdorf? the best way to prove it is to take a down to the free track is if it is significantly faster you would be millionaire in 1 week ...

[shnaggs]

Re PV closing.This is easy to test on a dyno.
To setup a PV curve I always do a run with it locked down, at mid position, and then fully up.
Join the Hp points and you have the opening ramp shape.
But then I lock it down , varying the height 0.5mm at a time.
This gives you the best full down point, that gives highest power at the lowest rpm you want to use on track.
This of course can be achieved bu opening the PV early with the servo, but its alot more long term accurate to have a physical
down stop.

Thanks Wobbly! I greatly appreciate the feedback.

Could you please tell me how YOU create a fuel and ignition curve in Engmod? Do you start with a straight IGN/Fuel map and then adjust looking at the TUBmax, then run a turbulent model? Or do you have to have a close IGN and fuel curve already before you can run a turbulent model? I've been trying it multiple ways and the power is generally the same, but my TUBmax values differ from one to the other, along with MaxDeg, but both hit deto quite a lot in the sim. For instance I'm playing around with the RSW engine, with the pieces that have been posted throughout this forum, but I am missing both the engine file and the IGN file. I've guessed on the engine file, but i'm trying to create an IGN file and not having a lot of luck...but I'm learning a lot along the way! Thanks!

[lucf]

hello mr Lucf, i think if your engine is 2.5 s faster than the tmkz10c special, you do not think everyone would have one for this weekend for the world cup has wackersdorf? the best way to prove it is to take a down to the free track is if it is significantly faster you would be millionaire in 1 week ...

Yes Greg, we know you are right !

[F5 Dave]

And it could fly!

Thought you weren't coming back. We missed you. . , no, wait. The other one.

[wobbly]

Bartol used an injector in the KTM to add fuel when the engine was overeved into a corner on nil throttle.
This being one area a carb cannot do what is needed.
At all other TPS setups the carb worked perfectly, so full injection was deemed unnecessary complication.