ESE's works engine tuner

[Frits Overmars]

A guy here had a 600 Suzuki GSX racebike... Tube ran to the airbox, so it was pull the cork, squirt starter fluid (ether) down the tube, replace cork, start bike...

Could have been the original Big Bang bike then. Filling a large volume with air and fuel (LPG in my car) can have surprising effects, like air filter boxes blown to smithereens and a very sporty-looking bulge on the hood.

[peewee]

You're not the first to strike this problem. A guy here had a 600 Suzuki GSX racebike - late 80's style with full bodywork. Ran it on methanol and had a lot of problems starting it. Finished up with a plastic tube with a cork in it, up beside the steering head. Tube ran to the airbox, so it was pull the cork, squirt starter fluid (ether) down the tube, replace cork, start bike....A practical solution I thought.

great idea and easier than drilling the carb. ill give it a try

[Grumph]

Could have been the original Big Bang bike then. Filling a large volume with air and fuel (LPG in my car) can have surprising effects, like air filter boxes blown to smithereens and a very sporty-looking bulge on the hood.

While he did manage to blow it up in several surprising ways, that wasn't one of them. Not for lack of trying though...

I know what you mean though - I was very glad at one point that I'd made and fitted a blow-off valve to a roots blown Kawasaki 500 twin when a plenum half full of methanol decided to get excited and go bang. Fastest I've ever got off a bike under my own power.

[wobbly]

Yea, thanks Husa.
I wanted a baseline to do new pipes for customer racebikes.
Job done, the new ones have won the NZ TT several times and IOM classic twice.

[guyhockley]

what do you guys think of this idea. for starting the engine cold I can drill a hole and tap threads in the carb on the engine side of the slide and install this nipple and attach a small hose so petrol or ether can be squirted in. of course I would put a rubber cap on the nipple before attempting to start the engine. check out photo to see what I meen . other wise I don't know how to get this bugger fired up

squirting petrol or any other starting fluid on the back side of the slide will be time consuming as the seat, body panels and sub frame with airbox would need removed. spraying ether directly to the airfilter may wash away the oil and allow in dirt

Different end of the performance spectrum but there used to be a company in England converting outboards to run on paraffin and that's also hard to start. I was told the trick was to have a small auxiliary tank of petrol feeding the pilot jet for starting and tickover. No details of how it was done, though.
Not sure if paraffin is called that in other countries - it's the stuff used in old blowlamps, hurricane lamps, greenhouse heaters etc.

[F5 Dave]

Kerosene. Primary use is cleaning chain lube off motorbikes. Well, in this parish.

[Ocean1]

Kerosene. Primary use is cleaning chain lube off motorbikes. Well, in this parish.

And flying you to other parishes.

[Frits Overmars]

Different end of the performance spectrum but there used to be a company in England converting outboards to run on paraffin and that's also hard to start.... Not sure if paraffin is called that in other countries - it's the stuff used in old blowlamps, hurricane lamps, greenhouse heaters etc.

In the Netherlands it's called petroleum. Same uses as stated above, plus some people used it as an illegal (non-taxed) fuel in both petrol and diesel cars.
But in petrol cars the smell gave it away all too easily.

[TZ350]

Same rpm, same throttle position, different airflow.

Attachment 332725

I understand Nath88's explanation for the change in the LamW02 trace Yellow line. .... good one.



Pressure in the exhaust header pipe as measured by a MAP sensor, Yellow line, RPM Blue line, LamWo2 Brown line.

Through a one way valve arrangement the MAP sensor only measures the high positive pressures of the returning pulse in the header and does not see the negative suction pressure.

Interesting that the MAP pressure line on the left as the engine is still winding down and at zero throttle is higher than ambient and the MAP pressure line on the right at WOT which starts at ambient before obviously rising again as the engine gets on the pipe. There is quite a sudden drop in MAP pressure (Yellow line) when the throttle (Red line) goes from fully closed to fully open.

But why does the header pipe positive pressure behave like this? ...... .. high and above ambient when there is no throttle and the engine is winding down then goes lower when it's on WOT and starting to pick up again.

[Grumph]

But why does the header pipe positive pressure behave like this? ...... .. high and above ambient when there is no throttle and the engine is winding down then goes lower when it's on WOT and starting to pick up again.

Can I suggest that the whole system - from inlet via crankcase to muffler - has one end closed when the throttle is shut and the chamber tailpipe is then doing what it's supposed to and acting as a pressure bleed resistor.
Open the other end to atmosphere - open the throttle - and the system pressure should drop to atm and possibly lower momentarily.

But I've been wrong before...

[Nath88]

But why does the header pipe pressure behave like this? ...... .. high when there is no throttle and winding down then low when it's on WOT and starting to pick up again.

I saw something similar with mine.
Since we're measuring the peak, it implies the average pressure in the pipe must be lower than atmospheric by a fair bit?
Has anyone witnessed a vacuum in the pipe at any time?

Once the engine starts making power the exhaust flow creates pressure in the pipe due to the stinger restriction.

A differential pressure sensor with the average pipe pressure as the reference might be the go. Or my new sensor, should be testing the prototype next week.


Can you set the crank angle for sampling the MAP sensor with the ecotrons?

[TZ350]

Can I suggest that the whole system - from inlet via crankcase to muffler - has one end closed when the throttle is shut and the chamber tailpipe is then doing what it's supposed to and acting as a pressure bleed resistor. Open the other end to atmosphere - open the throttle - and the system pressure should drop to atm and possibly lower momentarily.

That is possible I guess, but on overrun with throttle closed and the motor not firing what could be creating the pressure in the pipe?

You would think any residual pressure from a full power run would have bleed away quite quickly but on other graphs it actually looks like it builds up a bit.

Bit of a puzzle

Can you set the crank angle for sampling the MAP sensor with the Ecotrons?

No. But I am very interested in the sensor you are developing.

[Nath88]

That is possible I guess, but on overrun with throttle closed and the motor not firing what could be creating the pressure in the pipe?

You would think any residual pressure from a full power run would have bleed away quite quickly but on other graphs it actually looks like it builds up a bit.

Bit of a puzzle



No. But I am very interested in the sensor you are developing.

That's a shame, timing will be key for this thing.

I thought that it was showing atmospheric pressure off the throttle, going into vacuum as you opened the throttle. What pressure is atmo?
But if its producing positive pressure with a closed throttle I'm out of ideas... Definitely qualifies as a puzzle.

[teriks]

I understand Nath88's explanation for the change in the LamW02 trace Yellow line. .... good one.



Pressure in the exhaust header pipe as measured by a MAP sensor, Yellow line, RPM Blue line, LamWo2 Brown line.

Through a one way valve arrangement the MAP sensor only measures the high positive pressures of the returning pulse in the header and does not see the negative suction pressure.

Assuming that the one way valve is working properly, and you still have that bleed between the one way valve and sensor, the lowest pressure you should ever see at the sensor is atmospheric, no matter how low the pressure in the pipe is.

Interesting that the MAP pressure line on the left as the engine is still winding down and at zero throttle is higher than ambient and the MAP pressure line on the right at WOT which starts at ambient before obviously rising again as the engine gets on the pipe. There is quite a sudden drop in MAP pressure (Yellow line) when the throttle (Red line) goes from fully closed to fully open.

But why does the header pipe positive pressure behave like this? ...... .. high and above ambient when there is no throttle and the engine is winding down then goes lower when it's on WOT and starting to pick up again.

Well, the pressure should never go below atmospheric as per above, but lets ignore the numbers and focus on the drop in pressure when opening the throttle:
Closed throttle => ~0 airflow thru the header
Open throttle (even without firing) => >0 airflow the the header.
Now, depending on the geometry around your pressure pickup position its not at all unlikely that the pressure drops in that position simply due to flow. -Think venturi..

[41juergen]

The foil type impeller blade is hugely more efficient at moving water.
Two things I have done to improve the flow capability - as the water enters the pump in the middle,replace the center of the impeller with a cone ( threaded internally LH from the back as per original ).
And secondly you can make ( laser cut - easier ) a cover spacer plate,and increase the impeller blade depth the same amount.
Doing this on an old TZ350 pump with a 5mm spacer nearly doubled the flow rate, and keeps my TZ400 engine running under 50*C.

I remember you mentioned that earlier, so I will get a larger / higher impeller hopefully next week. I also made a distance plate the old way, no laser cut (drilling holes, using a chisel to get the large part out and then finalize the shape with the file )...