ESE's works engine tuner

[motogpdriver]

Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
I made a short vid of Wobbly's capacitor mod on a test bench a while back,the results can be seen;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIf4loTFeiw

I have a question about a cdi curve testbench.
If I build 1 how can I read the ignition curve the best way?
I mean you need an rpm meter/degree disc/timing light.
is it possible to note the rpm and timing degree by eye sight or is there an other way/tool that can draw the actual curve in rpm vs degrees in let say 50rpm steps?
many thanks,

[41juergen]

Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
I made a short vid of Wobbly's capacitor mod on a test bench a while back,the results can be seen;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIf4loTFeiw

I have a question about a cdi curve testbench.
If I build 1 how can I read the ignition curve the best way?
I mean you need an rpm meter/degree disc/timing light.
is it possible to note the rpm and timing degree by eye sight or is there an other way/tool that can draw the actual curve in rpm vs degrees in let say 50rpm steps?
many thanks,

That's how I build up mine CDI tester. The rpm is read via the data logger on the connected computer, the timing read via the strobe lamp. I did that for the 3XV / 4DP stuff by increasing 500 rpm each step...

[Frits Overmars]

That's how I build up mine CDI tester. The rpm is read via the data logger on the connected computer, the timing read via the strobe lamp. I did that for the 3XV / 4DP stuff by increasing 500 rpm each step...

Many strobe lamps are designed for about 3000 rpm and at high revs they can suffer from an unknown amount of delay, or they overheat and perish, or both.
But you don't need a strobe lamp at all.
My setup (still in Italy, alas I have no pictures of it) looked a lot like yours but instead of a degree wheel I used a nylon spool of 114,6 mm diameter with a metal measuring tape glued around it. Figure out the necessary length of tape and you'll understand.
The spool with the measuring tape was stationary, the spark plug cable was connected to the tape, and the rotating shaft carried an indicator needle that ran
close to the tape. In order to avoid the spark current from pitting the bearing races, a carbon brush made up the connection between the rotating shaft and earth.

[Michael Moore]

I need to make something to let me map the curve in the stock box on my 2015 KTM 250SX engine, since I've been unable to find that information anywhere and I suspect it may not be suitable for pavement use.

I've hopes of figuring out how to use an Arduino and sensors to capture both the RPM and the spark event, but since my small amount of programming is 30 years in the past I've got a lot to learn.

It sounds like it might also be possible to use a signal generator to trigger the box and not have to build a mechanical test bed, but electronics are magic to me since I can't see the electrons moving. I bought a digital USB o-scope but I need to get one of my EE friends to walk me through how to use it.

[Frits Overmars]

It sounds like it might also be possible to use a signal generator to trigger the box and not have to build a mechanical test bed.

Provided the ignition system has a separate trigger pickup, it is very well possible to trigger the CDI via a signal generator instead of via a mechanical test bed.
That way you'll avoid the risk that the frequency regulator for the electromotor rpm will play havoc with all nearby electronics.
Frequency regulators and high-frequency welding equipment can even blow up computers. Been there...
The only remaining unknown factor when using a signal generator instead of the original pickup will be the pickup behaviour: is its trigger position rpm-independent?

[motogpdriver]

Many strobe lamps are designed for about 3000 rpm and at high revs they can suffer from an unknown amount of delay, or they overheat and perish, or both.
But you don't need a strobe lamp at all.
My setup (still in Italy, alas I have no pictures of it) looked a lot like yours but instead of a degree wheel I used a nylon spool of 114,6 mm diameter with a metal measuring tape glued around it. Figure out the necessary length of tape and you'll understand.
The spool with the measuring tape was stationary, the spark plug cable was connected to the tape, and the rotating shaft carried an indicator needle that ran
close to the tape. In order to avoid the spark current from pitting the bearing races, a carbon brush made up the connection between the rotating shaft and earth.

thank you Frits,
now I remember again,you mentioned this setup some time before
Saw something the same on youtube yesterday but at the moment can't find it again.
Still a datalogger or something like 41juergen used would be nice to draw the exact curve in degrees vs rpm.
I wonder if (without the use of a datalogger) and watch degreewheel and rpm together you can get a correct measurement?
as rpm will fluctuate from electro motor?

[wobbly]

Yes you are onto it Frits, all reluctor type triggers have a rpm dependent change in the actual " firing " point of the output ,be that a leading or trailing edge of the waveform.
ECUs compensate for this as the design of this type of trigger is pretty much universal, and they all react very similarly.
So an electronic waveform generator must be programmed to use the same rpm dependent change in the wave form crossing zero, or the results are erroneous.
I have a test bench that is simply a vacuum cleaner motor driving a secondary shaft thru a cog belt.
The variable speed is a lamp rheostat on the secondary winding of the motor - with a dpdp switch that swaps the winding's around for directional control..
And as long as you use a super cheap " inline " strobe there are no timing delays in the flash.

[wax]

Yes you are onto it Frits, all reluctor type triggers have a rpm dependent change in the actual " firing " point of the output ,be that a leading or trailing edge of the waveform.
ECUs compensate for this as the design of this type of trigger is pretty much universal, and they all react very similarly.
So an electronic waveform generator must be programmed to use the same rpm dependent change in the wave form crossing zero, or the results are erroneous.
I have a test bench that is simply a vacuum cleaner motor driving a secondary shaft thru a cog belt.
The variable speed is a lamp rheostat on the secondary winding of the motor - with a dpdp switch that swaps the winding's around for directional control..
And as long as you use a super cheap " inline " strobe there are no timing delays in the flash.

Do they also go up to a decent rpm Wobbly
I hate those things but if it works then ok

[Frits Overmars]

Do they also go up to a decent rpm Wobbly. I hate those things but if it works then ok

Those inline strobes don't contain any electronics, so they have zero timing delay. They are nothing more than a neon tube in series with the plug lead.
They can handle all the revs you throw at them and they are indestructible unless you drop 'm.
On the dark side, they emit only a very weak flash of light. I used to use them with a blanket covering myself and the bike in order to shut out the daylight.
That was about a century ago but sometimes I think I can still smell the smoke and the stand-off in my clothes and in my hair...

[Carel H]

This was my solution. A couple of white leds flashing at sub millisecond times at the actual ignition point. The moment you mention "time", although being minimal, for visual feedback, you know there is an error in reading. More Leds--> less flash time --> at the same time acknowledging an engine compared to a computer is a very slow thing.

[wax]

Those inline strobes don't contain any electronics and so they have zero timing delay. They are nothing more than a neon tube in series with the plug lead.
They can handle all the revs you throw at them and they are indestructible unless you drop 'm.
On the dark side, they emit only a very weak flash of light. I used to use them with a blanket covering myself and the bike in order to shut out the daylight. Sometimes I think I can still smell the smoke and the stand-off in my clothes and in my hair...

Sounds like fun. and a great way to get burnt

[Frits Overmars]

This was my solution. A couple of white leds flashing at sub millisecond times at the actual ignition point. The moment you mention "time", although being minimal, for visual feedback, you know there is an error in reading. More Leds--> less flash time --> at the same time acknowledging an engine compared to a computer is a very slow thing.

I never thought of LEDs Carel. Surely they now must be cheaper than neon tubes, let alone amplified strobes. What can you tell us about their delay?

[F5 Dave]

Last week setting up my 496 RZ base advance with Ignitech. was looking good but started jumping around. Uh-oh. Which one of Wobblys commandments have I broken? .
Stood back a second to review my wiring. Then realised I'd been playing around the night before entering potential ignition and PV curves.
Course I'd forgotten about that and not put the straight 15* curve back in and it was jumping up the steep initial rise as I blipped it.

[wobbly]

Me 2 Frits, at Lake Havasu running the Jetski Worlds i had a blanket over me looking at the timing with my trusty old neon.
Then I had to use one to see the old Win 98 laptop screen as well.
The team decided as I was ugly and a cripple to boot, the blanket should remain in place wherever we went cheeky bastards.

[Matt@TYGA]

Here's what I use for bench testing. In this case it's a new one that I'm building for my NX5, so not finished yet. I have the same for the NSR250 and it works great.

I first built one so that I could simply bench test all the components of the NSR250 to check that they actually worked. Then build the basic map of the ignition, exhaust valve and air solenoid timing/curves.

It just plugs straight into the 4P connector from the pickups and I've used it many times to check various things and the best bit is the neighbours never actually know what you're up to as it's quiet as a mouse.

The rotor is driven by a simple radiator fan motor, controlled by a PWM motor controller. It'll spin up to around 12,500rpm. Not exactly the safest tool in my box, but oh well ;-)

My first box was built out of an old speaker box and some plastic hacksawed to size. The rotor was again plastic, with steel lobes screwed in. The whole arrangement balanced very scientifically......spin it up, cut a bit off or add a screw until it didn't vibrate LOL.

As for the strobe, yes this is an issue at high rpm and I've busted a couple. Oops. Rather interested in looking into the neon/xenon or LED arrangement, then I can permanently mount the light directly where it needs to be on my box.

I'll have to get some bulbs and have a play. Already have a box full of LEDs but neon/xenon bulbs are a bit thin on the ground in my toy box.

Anyway, I thought that I'd share that with you.

Matt.