ESE's works engine tuner

[jamathi]

This is a valuable thread with many hours of contributions and discussions from around the world.

The moderators will not tolerate this thread descending into personal abuse, so if you have nothing of value to contribute to the topic at hand don't bother posting.

Maybe this is interesting to some people
A picture of the Ryger piston...
It keeps breaking!
Does anyone understand why? You Wobbly?
Power is less than 40HP, probably around 35, or less.
About 50% less than was announced......
Just about as fast as a much cheaper ROTAX Max
The piston looks quite heavy.
No change of 30.000 rpm!
Maybe half of it?
Anyone still believing in this 'miracle'?
How could anyone ever take this seriously?
The scrap heap is still waiting, patiently.

I also heard some people invested more than 500.000 Euro in this project.
Sadly everything will be lost.....
As not even 1 engine was sold, and there are 50 in stock

There will be NO personal abuse!

[Martin1981]

I have the feeling that the ryger engine is shit. But the piston looks funny.

[jamathi]

I have the feeling that the ryger engine is shit. But the piston looks funny.

Yes, the piston makes you laugh.....
But your feeling is 100% right.
Shit

[Muhr]

The piston looks quite heavy.
No change of 30.000 rpm!
Maybe half of it?

There will be NO personal abuse!

wondering what bigend force would be at 30000 rpm 8-10,000 kg?

[lucf]

This is an article about Ryger in an Italian magazine.
Nobody in the Ryger team knows that it would be published.
Frits has not put in any to this Ryger concept in the few month he was involved.
I translated the Italian text via Google because I wanted to know what was being written.
The translation is therefore not perfect, but the scope is clear.

Especially the photo caption below makes clear what your dear gentleman Frits told the Italians.

Ryger 125 Revo:
Revolutionary and devastating or not?
Among the new homology questions for the 125 KZ-class, there is a new Dutch engine that would have 70 hp and would reach 30,000 rpm. But was it so? And what effect would his arrival on the market and in the race have?
While the eyes of all kartists who were interested in the new techniques were mainly focused on the new single-engine "ok" engines that debut in 2016, it seems that the revolution is coming from another direction.
Among the requests for homologation for the 125-class with the gearbox, one in fact came from the Netherlands, whose miracles were discussed. Let's talk about the engine Ryger 125 revo, a unit intended for KZ which, according to the few technical information available, would have the beauty of 70 horses and would reach 30,000 rpm. It is at least revolutionary, and not just from a technical point of view, if this news were confirmed, the effects on the market and on the offers could be devastating. But they can also all be useless concerns.

Between accusations and rumors The question is therefore parracchie ...... However, assuming that there is little else outside the certain numbers on Facebook. It is not our custom to talk on the basis of simple actions, but it is clear that such news can not pass in silence, if only because of the consequences that could be a hoax, an exaggeration of widespread art to talk about before I even saw something "black on white"?
A hypothesis anything but peregrine falcon in an environment such as that of karting that lives a lot on the paddock voices.
and an opportunity to consider is answered by Andrea Severi (SGM) who reasons the issue in such terms - that these figures are scattered to speak only. Anchio I only heard about it, but there are many things that come back mon. For example, we talk about solutions for patents, but is this really true? Because in that case there would be official documentation, my environment I did not find anything. But if the method really works, it would be something epochal in the world of motorsport. And the first thing I would do, even before the speech with my neighbor would be to patent everything.
In short, the fact of accepting the veridicity of certain statements and a first step is not of poci. Also because the first question that arises and how we would come to a result after years and years of development of the twofold technique and without any results so far not even comparable?

photo caption
The Dutch Ryger 125 revo is derived from an idea that has been developed by Frits Overmars for about ten years, the primose that can be seen on the photo



https://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl...ch=59450;image

Isn't it a bit the same like "his FOS" ?

[JanBros]

Luc, go fight your personal war somewhere else.
you contribute absolutly nothing to tis topic but trashtalk. I vote for a ban.

[Martin1981]

lucs last post proves nothing. as usual....

there is one thing i do not understand. Frits said that he drove a kart with a ryger prototype engine. he told us that he was amazed by it and it was a rocketship. was he forced to lie because he was misused as a marketing tool by the ryger guys? i dont believe that Frits lies to us.

so we must assume that there was one working prototype at least.

now we only get information of rygers with estimated poor 35 hp AND bad relability.....

WHERE IS THIS WORKING PROTOTYPE LUC? even if it is not reliable.... if it has the power Frits felt, then put it on a kart track, invite all the karting VIPs and experts and show its power! even if it will only last a single lap and then blows up.... even if it would only last 2 straights and 3 corners.... one would see and hear if the engine is strong. Why dont the ryger guys do that? where is the fucking problem?

i can explain myself or at least understand the poor reliability because of the short rod and the force it puts on the piston shaft and so on. but i cant understand the poor 35 hp because Frits impression sounds like way more than 35.

[ken seeber]

The question was asked of Frits at the time as to the subjective acceleration and he made the point that it felt very, very good. However how well calibrated was Frits on the day? I reckon that if anyone got into a KZ kart and went for it up some dodgy and skinny road between tulip farms, they would have to have a grin on their faces. Subsequent to that, Frits wouldn’t answer a multitude of questions and later that year, got himself clear of the project.

What he actually drove (was it a Ryger or some 175 cc KZ?) is one question and I think that Frits, from his posts, didn’t actually witness any 70 hp and 30,000 rpm testing. And wouldn’t any of us hang around if we actually saw a true, calibrated 70 hp, rather than the 55 hp or so of the best KZ.

None of us have any idea of the extent of Luc’s involvement and what he has seen.

Fundamentlly we don’t want to lose ESE or see it distracted. I therefore agree with Gremlin, however we need to go further. It should be that no-one presents anything that can’t be reasonably demonstrated and or proven. Wouldn’t want this to interfere with ideas, questions and answers, knowledge sharing, the odd bit of lighhearted banter and the rest of the usual stuff that goes on. But if you get a result and make a claim, then be able to demonstrate it with credible test results (A-B-A) or with race wins, or with something that we can all understand and believe. I think we all see ESE as a forum of sharing information to facilitate the 2 stroke to go forward into the future, in various applications. Maybe the best forum in the world.

We all get so much misleading formal media and social media bullshit these days, eg Cambridge Analytica, that we don’t know what to believe, so the best we as individuals can, at least, do is to strive to counter this with integrity and meaningful & relevant facts.

There’s no individual heroes here, but just a lot of clever guys willing to share their hard won knowledge and experiences for the cause.

[SwePatrick]

If i remember correctly there was quite a short rod in the ryger, yes?

And even if the 'guide' for the piston in that blockadapterplate(or what to call it) helps piston from rocking.
It will be HUGE sideloads on this guide where the rod connects to it.
Certanly when trying to rev 30k with a short rod.
The engine would probably never produce power due to hard high frequency vibrations that are foaming fuel etc etc.
And the special pistons need to be made of steel to take the abuse from the rod

To rev high, one need a stroke rod ratio that allows it, even if it´s hidden underneeth a fancy blockadaptorplate =)

[SwePatrick]

wondering what bigend force would be at 30000 rpm 8-10,000 kg?

And the sideforces on the wristpin as i mentioned above.

[laihialainen]

Hello.

Does somebody know, what is the compression height of ktm 50 sx piston? From piston pin center to top corner? Does model year have any effect?

I tried to google but didn't find. Thanks.

[shnaggs]

Maybe a very stupid question, but all this talk about the Ryger and its short con-rod and side loading blah blah blah. How is this any different than say a 250cc 4T single, they have stupid short con-rod's and rev just as high if not higher??? So how would this be any different in the Ryger application?

[Muhr]

Hello.

Does somebody know, what is the compression height of ktm 50 sx piston? From piston pin center to top corner? Does model year have any effect?

I tried to google but didn't find. Thanks.

21,5mm fairly new one.

Maybe a very stupid question, but all this talk about the Ryger and its short con-rod and side loading blah blah blah. How is this any different than say a 250cc 4T single, they have stupid short con-rod's and rev just as high if not higher??? So how would this be any different in the Ryger application?

Discussion was about 30,000 rpm. And I think new racing 4 stroke engines use a lot of cylinder offset.(I am a 4 stroke amateur)

[SwePatrick]

Maybe a very stupid question, but all this talk about the Ryger and its short con-rod and side loading blah blah blah. How is this any different than say a 250cc 4T single, they have stupid short con-rod's and rev just as high if not higher??? So how would this be any different in the Ryger application?

They also spit the rod on the ground quite more often

kx450 on video just as an example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYXeEIyp1fc

KX450 rod = 101mm stroke 62.1 gives rod ratio of 1.62
KX250 rod = 125mm stroke 72mm gives rod ratio of 1.73

Me personally i have never heard of a KX250(2t) spitting a rod, but ofcourse it has happened.

But i actually think that they keep the rods short in foulstrokes to keep engines from building height due to everything that is needed to make a foulstroke to run is in the head and it build high center of gravity and it also interferes with framedesign etc etc.

[jellert]

The question was asked of Frits at the time as to the subjective acceleration and he made the point that it felt very, very good. However how well calibrated was Frits on the day? I reckon that if anyone got into a KZ kart and went for it up some dodgy and skinny road between tulip farms, they would have to have a grin on their faces. Subsequent to that, Frits wouldn’t answer a multitude of questions and later that year, got himself clear of the project.

What he actually drove (was it a Ryger or some 175 cc KZ?) is one question and I think that Frits, from his posts, didn’t actually witness any 70 hp and 30,000 rpm testing. And wouldn’t any of us hang around if we actually saw a true, calibrated 70 hp, rather than the 55 hp or so of the best KZ.

None of us have any idea of the extent of Luc’s involvement and what he has seen.

Fundamentlly we don’t want to lose ESE or see it distracted. I therefore agree with Gremlin, however we need to go further. It should be that no-one presents anything that can’t be reasonably demonstrated and or proven. Wouldn’t want this to interfere with ideas, questions and answers, knowledge sharing, the odd bit of lighhearted banter and the rest of the usual stuff that goes on. But if you get a result and make a claim, then be able to demonstrate it with credible test results (A-B-A) or with race wins, or with something that we can all understand and believe. I think we all see ESE as a forum of sharing information to facilitate the 2 stroke to go forward into the future, in various applications. Maybe the best forum in the world.

We all get so much misleading formal media and social media bullshit these days, eg Cambridge Analytica, that we don’t know what to believe, so the best we as individuals can, at least, do is to strive to counter this with integrity and meaningful & relevant facts.

There’s no individual heroes here, but just a lot of clever guys willing to share their hard won knowledge and experiences for the cause.

Very well said, just what I was thinking. Getting back into a kart even after a short winter break can make anything seem impressive. So like you say no matter how much power it actually was (even if it was only 35-40hp), it would likely make you smile.

I think people should be able to come show their achievements without necessarily having hard proof, provided they don't come fishing for compliments and they share their experience for fun or to share knowledge. If they make claims that people find hard to believe, then yes they should definitely be able to back them up with hard data. Finding old quotes from highly respected people in the industry and trying to smear them is definitely not a good way to back up your claims .