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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #30136
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel62 View Post
    Need a good quality laptop based scope not little old small screen electronics scope.
    Following Diesel62's suggestion I went looking for a PC scope. I was not able to afford the real deal but was able to find a free ware PC based scope and signal generator.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is good enough for what I need. A signal generator to simulate an ignition trigger signal and crankcase pressure wave from 1,000 to 13,000 RPM, 16 to 220 Hz. I can use the signal generator to simulate my engine while developing the Arduino program.

    The EngMod 2T simulations show crankcase pressure traces from 5-100% throttle and interestingly all the peaks are at the same crank angle.

    Because the MAP sensor is slow compared to the short time available Flettner suggested, instead of making a continuous pressure measurement to find the high and low point like I have been trying to do. Just make one or two at the critical points.

    Flettners suggestion looks like a great idea.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As I am only looking for the relative difference between the High and Low pressure points then I could just chose an arbitrary low point and compare the relative magnitudes of the peaks from there. That would be a reliable indication of changes in air flow and only one measurement per cycle would be required, much easier.

    The Ecotrons 2T EFI software has the VE map (RPM vis MAP) disabled and only allows for an Alpha-N map (RPM vis TPS) and this is totally useless for variable changes in airflow at the same RPM/TPS points on the Alpha-N map.

    So I also need a 4T style VE map (RPM vis MAP) as the MAP indicates variations in airflow. But I have so far been unable to persuade Ecotrons to enable the VE map in my tuning software, "Because they don't recommend it". They might be great at writing software code but I am not sure they are 2T experts.

    I was talking with Marsheng today and he suggested that if I can't use the MAP input on a VE table to indicate the reduced airflow then I could use the TPS input on the Alpa-N table. The idea is to indicate an artificially low TPS for the actual throttle position when I wanted to tell the EFI CPU that the air flow was momentarily reduced.

    Makes sense, get the Arduino to read the TPS signal and the crankcase pressure and then simulate a reduced TPS value for the EFI CPU when the peak crankcase pressure is reduced because of reduced airflow due to reduced wave energy in the expansion chamber.

    This way we can have a full normal TPS signal when the motor is on song and the pipe is strongly sucking air through the motor and the TPS signal can be artificially reduced to indicate reduced airflow and fuel requirement when the wave action in the pipe has collapsed and there is less air being drawn through motor.

    Brilliant ideas, thanks Diesel62, Flettner and Marsheng.

  2. #30137
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    i think the latest Link has a built in oscilloscope in the softwear.

  3. #30138
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    Strangely enough this is more or less where I've gone with the Link system on my turbo 100(cough).
    Off boost the fuel is determined in the main fuel table by TPS vs RPM. Without the turbo this would be sufficient to make the motor run fine. I have however enabled what Link call a 4d table which acts to modify the fuel requirement calculated by the main table. I've configured the 4D table to use MAP vs RPM. The lowest MAP value is 0BAR or atmospheric so below 0BAR it has no effect. Any increase in pressure(boost) causes the value in a cell to be used to modify the fuel. The cell and therefore the value is determined by boost at any particular RPM. The 4D table can be used to add or subtract fuel. I could add a 5D table as well if there was some other value I wanted to monitor and use to modify the amount of fuel. Any Link fuel table can have any variable designated on any axis. The main fuel table could be MAP or TPS or a few other variables.
    There will of course still be variation in air flow below 0BAR dependent on whether the turbo is spooling up or not but just having it a bit rich seems to cover that transition period where the turbo is spooling up. If I found that just below 0BAR there was a fuel problem with the turbo spooling up I can simply change the first value on the Y-axis to something below 0BAR.
    The "Help" function on the Link is very good with suggestions on how to configure the system depending on a number of variables such as cams, weak or erratic vacuum, turbo or supercharged, and others.
    Shame I haven't had time to work on it over the last month or more.

  4. #30139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flettner View Post
    i think the latest Link has a built in oscilloscope in the softwear.
    It doesn't on my Atom but later and greater systems it does. You can check for instance the trigger waveforms.

  5. #30140
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    As i said, the link is very versatile.

  6. #30141
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    I was able to find a free ware PC based scope and signal generator.
    can we have a link ?

  7. #30142
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Following Diesel62's suggestion I went looking for a PC scope. I was not able to afford the real deal but was able to find a free ware PC based scope and signal generator.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PC Oscilloscope.png 
Views:	90 
Size:	347.0 KB 
ID:	337555

    This is good enough for what I need. A signal generator to simulate an ignition trigger signal and crankcase pressure wave from 1,000 to 13,000 RPM, 16 to 220 Hz. I can use the signal generator to simulate my engine while developing the Arduino program.

    The EngMod 2T simulations show crankcase pressure traces from 5-100% throttle and interestingly all the peaks are at the same crank angle.

    Because the MAP sensor is slow compared to the short time available Flettner suggested, instead of making a continuous pressure measurement to find the high and low point like I have been trying to do. Just make one or two at the critical points.

    Flettners suggestion looks like a great idea.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crankcase Pressure Traces.png 
Views:	92 
Size:	370.2 KB 
ID:	337554

    As I am only looking for the relative difference between the High and Low pressure points then I could just chose an arbitrary low point and compare the relative magnitudes of the peaks from there. That would be a reliable indication of changes in air flow and only one measurement per cycle would be required, much easier.

    The Ecotrons 2T EFI software has the VE map (RPM vis MAP) disabled and only allows for an Alpha-N map (RPM vis TPS) and this is totally useless for variable changes in airflow at the same RPM/TPS points on the Alpha-N map.

    So I also need a 4T style VE map (RPM vis MAP) as the MAP indicates variations in airflow. But I have so far been unable to persuade Ecotrons to enable the VE map in my tuning software, "Because they don't recommend it". They might be great at writing software code but I am not sure they are 2T experts.

    I was talking with Marsheng today and he suggested that if I can't use the MAP input on a VE table to indicate the reduced airflow then I could use the TPS input on the Alpa-N table. The idea is to indicate an artificially low TPS for the actual throttle position when I wanted to tell the EFI CPU that the air flow was momentarily reduced.

    Makes sense, get the Arduino to read the TPS signal and the crankcase pressure and then simulate a reduced TPS value for the EFI CPU when the peak crankcase pressure is reduced because of reduced airflow due to reduced wave energy in the expansion chamber.

    This way we can have a full normal TPS signal when the motor is on song and the pipe is strongly sucking air through the motor and the TPS signal can be artificially reduced to indicate reduced airflow and fuel requirement when the wave action in the pipe has collapsed and there is less air being drawn through motor.

    Brilliant ideas, thanks Diesel62, Flettner and Marsheng.
    It occured to me the other day you could just use a dirty old tech vane type airflow meter.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkyfjo7spFc
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  8. #30143
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanBros View Post
    can we have a link ?
    https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #30144
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    It occured to me the other day you could just use a dirty old tech vane type airflow meter.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkyfjo7spFc
    A vain looks great for steady uniflow air. And could be just the ticket if I was running a big plenum, which was my original reason for getting into 2T EFI....

    I have not tried a vane because, apart from the unwanted extra length to the inlet tract I suspect a performance 2T's changes in air flow will be violently flapping the vane up and down and that will confuse the CPU right up to the point where the 2T finally rips the vane right off and swallows it.

    Still that is just my suspicions and a vane may be worth looking at. I have seen what look like small scooter sized ones on a Japanese auction sight.

    But if someone wants to temporally tape a car one to the bellmouth of their carb and scope the signal I would love to see how consistent the trace is.

  10. #30145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flettner View Post
    As i said, the link is very versatile.
    The Arduino thing is still a useful line of inquiry because whichever unit I use I still need to solve the problem of identifying changes in air flow.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crankcase Pressure Traces.png 
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    Your idea of only reading the MAP sensor at a set crank angle looks very promising.

    Time is running out for Ecotrons, a Link is looming large on the horizon.

  11. #30146
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Blue line = RPM. Brown line = LamWO2. Pink line = Injection pulse width. TPS = 100%

    Cursers are both at the same TPS, RPM, Alpha-N load, and Injection PW.

    On the left the engine is coasting down with the throttle held open and steady, LamWO2 a little lean, engine picks up at about 7,000rpm when air flow matches Alpha-N fueling and accelerates back to full power and rpm.

    A little lean in reality can be an indication it is too rich to fire.

    Left and Right sides both pass through the same Alpha-N map cells. Nath88 clued me into this. The air flow is different, there is much more air flow on the right than the left. After shutting the throttle as would when peeling into a corner the exhaust wave has collapsed it does not re-establish until the motor has been firing properly again for a bit. The motor coasts down until the airflow matches the fueling at some point on the Alpha-N map (TPS/RPM) and the motor starts firing again and after a bit it re establishes the wave action in the pipe.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Same TP Different Air Flow.png 
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ID:	337559

    For the same RPM and TP throttle position you can have very different air flows through the motor. It all depends on the strength of the wave action in the pipe. The wave action collapses when you throttle off for a corner and takes some time to re establish itself after throttling on again. This is where those pesky 4T's get the jump on you at the track.

    Alpha-N is a bit ridged as it only works with RPM and TPS so it cant flexible adjust the fueling because it cant see changes in airflow.

    VE volumetric efficiency works with RPM and MAP or MAF and so it can flexibly adjust fueling because it can see changes in air flow.

    But the problem is that all the EFI systems I have seen are aimed at 4T's and all of them don't have an easy way to identify changes in air flow through a high performance two stroke motor. Ie a 2T motor that is heavily dependent on its pipe for its performance.

    A work around is required to marry a 4T EFI system to the needs of a 2T. Traditional 4T ways of measuring air flow are not appropriate for 2T's so some other way of doing it is required.

    Some sort of work around is required.

  12. #30147
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    A vain looks great for steady uniflow air. And could be just the ticket if I was running a big plenum, which was my original reason for getting into 2T EFI....

    I have not tried a vane because, apart from the unwanted extra length to the inlet tract I suspect a performance 2T's changes in air flow will be violently flapping the vane up and down and that will confuse the CPU right up to the point where the 2T finally rips the vane right off and swallows it.

    Still that is just my suspicions and a vane may be worth looking at. I have seen what look like small scooter sized ones on a Japanese auction sight.

    But if someone wants to temporally tape a car one to the bellmouth of their carb and scope the signal I would love to see how consistent the trace is.
    Bulky yip,but if you ran a closed intake they could be part on the inlet for this, not sure how they will go in a 2t single but the RX7's had them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  13. #30148
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    Get with technology guys. Flaps haven't been used for Mass Air flow sensors for ages. The last time I checked, a heated wire was used, no moving parts. Just a controller to maintain the current through the wire at a constant value. The amount of voltage to maintain the current is proportional to the air flow cooling the wire. It could be done the other way - applying a constant voltage and measuring the current. You could add a bit of mass to smooth out the variations.
    Another way, but probably a bit less responsive than required, would be to use a bimetallic junction to heat or cool a small mass and a temp sensor to measure the temperature. At high airflow the mass would have heat removed requiring current to be applied to the bi-metallic junction to heat it. Again current would be proportional to mass air flow. Depending on the bi-metallic junction you could operate it in the crossover region where current reversed and it went from cooling to heating though probably simpler to have it in the heating only direction.

  14. #30149
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    Get with technology guys. Flaps haven't been used for Mass Air flow sensors for ages. The last time I checked, a heated wire was used, no moving parts. Just a controller to maintain the current through the wire at a constant value. The amount of voltage to maintain the current is proportional to the air flow cooling the wire. It could be done the other way - applying a constant voltage and measuring the current. You could add a bit of mass to smooth out the variations.
    Another way, but probably a bit less responsive than required, would be to use a bimetallic junction to heat or cool a small mass and a temp sensor to measure the temperature. At high airflow the mass would have heat removed requiring current to be applied to the bi-metallic junction to heat it. Again current would be proportional to mass air flow. Depending on the bi-metallic junction you could operate it in the crossover region where current reversed and it went from cooling to heating though probably simpler to have it in the heating only direction.
    Problem with the heated wire is it doesn't like lead and it is a bit more restrictive than it seems by the name.

    But yes most are this set up now if not MAP some are both like the EVO's
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  15. #30150
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Pink is Injector Duty Cycle.JPG 
Views:	63 
Size:	126.9 KB 
ID:	337558

    Blue line = RPM. Brown line = LamWO2. Pink line = Injection pulse width. TPS = 100%

    Cursers are both at the same TPS, RPM, Alpha-N load, and Injection PW.

    On the left the engine is coasting down with the throttle held open and steady, LamWO2 a little lean, engine picks up at about 7,000rpm when air flow matches Alpha-N fueling and accelerates back to full power and rpm.

    A little lean in reality can be an indication it is too rich to fire.

    Left and Right sides both pass through the same Alpha-N map cells. Nath88 clued me into this. The air flow is different, there is much more air flow on the right than the left. After shutting the throttle as would when peeling into a corner the exhaust wave has collapsed it does not re-establish until the motor has been firing properly again for a bit. The motor coasts down until the airflow matches the fueling at some point on the Alpha-N map (TPS/RPM) and the motor starts firing again and after a bit it re establishes the wave action in the pipe.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Same TP Different Air Flow.png 
Views:	51 
Size:	391.8 KB 
ID:	337559

    For the same RPM and TP throttle position you can have very different air flows through the motor. It all depends on the strength of the wave action in the pipe. The wave action collapses when you throttle off for a corner and takes some time to re establish itself after throttling on again. This is where those pesky 4T's get the jump on you at the track.

    Alpha-N is a bit ridged as it only works with RPM and TPS so it cant flexible adjust the fueling because it cant see changes in airflow.

    VE volumetric efficiency works with RPM and MAP or MAF and so it can flexibly adjust fueling because it can see changes in air flow.

    But the problem is that all the EFI systems I have seen are aimed at 4T's and all of them don't have an easy way to identify changes in air flow through a high performance two stroke motor. Ie a 2T motor that is heavily dependent on its pipe for its performance.

    A work around is required to marry a 4T EFI system to the needs of a 2T. Traditional 4T ways of measuring air flow are not appropriate for 2T's so some other way of doing it is required.

    Some sort of work around is required.
    Good to see scope working for you
    Could you just run Egt and tps. Wouldn't that tell you all you need to know.
    It doesn't really matter what is happening in the crankcase
    100% tps egt must CONTINUE to climb to 620 C ish.
    If you had a lookup table tps /rpm/egt.
    Or acceleration sensor to tell if on or off throttle

    Sent from my SM-P555 using Tapatalk

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