ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

500 bar or 7,000 psi more or less. I have had a bit to do with this sort of pressure but it would be interesting to know how they use this in motor sport. Continuous injection on a turbo/supercharged diesel tractor pull motor maybe. Pretty Impressive. Certainly you could use that sort of pressure for two stroke DI.

[husaberg]

500 bar or 7,000 psi more or less. I have had a bit to do with this sort of pressure but it would be interesting to know how they use this in motor sport. Continuous injection on a turbo/supercharged diesel tractor pull motor maybe. Pretty Impressive. Certainly you could use that sort of pressure for two stroke DI.

no idea but it came up when i googled F1 fuel injection pump
i dont folow f1 so i dont even know know f1 rules now dictate it must be D1 single injector.

[Peter1962]

intetesting, some spy photos I've just seen of TM's secret test enduro bike, (next years model? Im not sure its that secret if I got to see them��) but clearly seen on the side of the cylinder is TPI B port lugs to accept injectors, Same as KTM and the YZ250 TPI.
I did dangle the advantages of the Mk2 TPI in front of TM but they seemed not intetested.
Yes a modified version of the TPI is the answer, more power, better fuel economy.
But just like the original TPI system no one is interested, untill, suddenly, they are. I intend to have some fun with this next design before, 'suddenly they are'.

The French magazine 'Moto Verte' has a list of the new items on the 2019 TM 250 2stroke engines. New engine with counter balander, with electric starter, with new electronic powervalve system without cables. In it's enduro trim they are gonna sell it with a carb till 31/12/18 and in 2019 with fuel injection. In it's MX trim, no injection however. They follow the route taken by KTM and it's cousin Husqvarna.
https://moto-station.com/moto-verte/...ng-2019/403106

[teriks]

Injector and CPU speed are good enough now and it is easy to build in immediate response to changes in airflow if you can see the changes clearly. Which is something I cant do yet and suspect nobody else can either, especially above 10,000 rpm and 10 bar BMEP. Like you say, being able to read the airflow situation is the key to successful two stroke EFI.

Perhaps you could check if BRC would like to share information, seems they had an EFI attempt going but abandoned it due to lack of market.

From Facebook:
"We intended this to be a simple bolt-on conversion, so we wanted it to mimic carbs. We timed the injection pulse with the disc valve opening... Slightly before if I'm not mistaken. We weren't too sure if the carbon discs would have sufficient lubrication if we injected inside the cases or cylinder. It worked VERY well, but the development stopped due to a shrinking market for the BRC engine in the USA. Other countries wouldn't allow EFI."

Seems to work alright on the dyno at least.



https://www.facebook.com/brcracingcanada/

[Nath88]

Not too many data points, but for sure the average pressure drops after peak power.
Attachment 339010

Looks like a great indicator. Could be used for real time flow indication with the right transducer. Piezo could work here for sure, I just need to make one that works, preferably directly attached to the pipe.

Multiplier fuel table based on the exhaust pressure pulse value. Easy!

A more basic/robust system could have a table for amount of misfire cycles based on TPS and RPM (to skip or reduce injector duration when misfire is likely), then have the feedback from a transducer (ie; did it fire or not) as learning feedback for the table.

[Flettner]

The French magazine 'Moto Verte' has a list of the new items on the 2019 TM 250 2stroke engines. New engine with counter balander, with electric starter, with new electronic powervalve system without cables. In it's enduro trim they are gonna sell it with a carb till 31/12/18 and in 2019 with fuel injection. In it's MX trim, no injection however. They follow the route taken by KTM and it's cousin Husqvarna.
https://moto-station.com/moto-verte/...ng-2019/403106

It will interesting to see how KTM handle this.
Being as they claim they invented TPI and patented it.
Real interesting.

[husaberg]

Perhaps you could check if BRC would like to share information, seems they had an EFI attempt going but abandoned it due to lack of market.

From Facebook:
"We intended this to be a simple bolt-on conversion, so we wanted it to mimic carbs. We timed the injection pulse with the disc valve opening... Slightly before if I'm not mistaken. We weren't too sure if the carbon discs would have sufficient lubrication if we injected inside the cases or cylinder. It worked VERY well, but the development stopped due to a shrinking market for the BRC engine in the USA. Other countries wouldn't allow EFI."

Seems to work alright on the dyno at least.


https://www.facebook.com/brcracingcanada/

Riley wrote about it on Pitlane in about the first or second part.
From memory he said something along the lines of we decided to map it as if it was a carb with the same fuel curve ie they superimposed the fuel graph for a carb and set the map to replicate it.
they had great results with the feel ie not twitchy response by making the fueling less than perfect so it behaved like a carb would have.
I think most of the initial work was done on a single cylinder 125cc test mule.

[ken seeber]

Just some brute hp..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d3MtfgMalU

[TZ350]

Perhaps you could check if BRC would like to share information, seems they had an EFI attempt going but abandoned it due to lack of market.

From Facebook:
"We intended this to be a simple bolt-on conversion, so we wanted it to mimic carbs. We timed the injection pulse with the disc valve opening... Slightly before if I'm not mistaken. We weren't too sure if the carbon discs would have sufficient lubrication if we injected inside the cases or cylinder. It worked VERY well, but the development stopped due to a shrinking market for the BRC engine in the USA. Other countries wouldn't allow EFI."

Seems to work alright on the dyno at least.



https://www.facebook.com/brcracingcanada/

Yes BRC may be worth a re visit but the first time I came across them I realized they were doing nothing on the dyno that I couldn't my self. You will see that they don't let the rev's drop off the pipe and with only one logical injector (two physical injectors firing alternately) I don't think they could have achieved on track drivability.

Over 10,000 rpm there is no escaping the need for staged injection, a small primary and a much bigger secondary. Its an inescapable physical requirement dictated by the time available. And for 10+ bar BMEP you also need to be able to see the changes in air flow when the pipe is working or not, because the motor is very dependent on the pipe for its power. They were also using the Alpha-N methodology and that does not take account of changes in airflow, it is totally a TPS vis RPM thing and half the time you are on the pipe and the AN map is right and half the time you are off the pipe and the AN map would be wrong and over fueling.

I don't think they did it, maybe I am wrong, can anyone post an on board video clip of a EFI BRC on the track.

Husa put me onto this post in PitLane http://translate.google.co.nz/transl...on&prev=search

It talks about split injection where a injector fires every second revolution, it may be the way forward. Husa reminded me that he had suggested it to me before ...

Gentlemen,

2 years ago I did an Indirect EFI project on a 125cc Disk Valve Kart Racing Engine. I used a Vortex FC engine which produced 49HP carbureted. With our EFI, it made 55HP!!! The engine was very easy to start and the tuning was very simple. Here is how I did it:

Rather than attach sensors to figure out the everything for me, I went with information that was known to me. I have been tuning Del'Lorto carbs for years and have used their needle charts along with various softwares that calculate Comparative MainJet Sizes at 10% throttle increments. I used this information to calculate an initial map for the injectors. I did a test on the carbureted version at each throttle position to note the EGT that was giving the correct performance. Once running with the EFI i tried to tune it to achieve the same EGT numbers as the carbureted version.

In total I ran for 3 hours on the dyno and ended up with 10% more power everywhere!

The only sensors I used were Throttle Position, Engine RPM, Crank Angle, and Water Temp for initial start up enrichment.

How did I get an injector to fire every cycle at 15000 rpm?????? I didnt! What I did is used a Janvey 41mm butterfly throttle body with 2 injectors on the engine side of the butterfly. That way when the throttle is closed, fuel still feeds the engine to lubricate it like a Pilot Jet would do. To get 15000 RPM, I had each injector firing at alternating engine revolutions. Thereby the injectors were seeing 7500 pulse at 15000rpm of engine speed. I tricked them into thinking this was a 2 cylinder 4 cycle engine firing in Tandem.

In total I spent $1600.00 in componentry to validate my "Simple EFI" idea! I will be doing more tests this winter and will be track testing in the spring. We are workind on the miimum battery requirements and packaging.

I used 2.5 Bar of pressure and will be testing more. I chose a disk valve engine for the symetrical inlet timing. I used a valve the opened at 137 degrees BTDC and closed at 87 degrees ATDC. I started firing the injector 10 degrees earlier on the opening and stopped the injector 10 degrees after the valve closed.

Upon engine disassembly it was noted that the lubraction seemed to be better dispersed thru-out the engine (only an observation). The engine would start at less than 800 rpm of crank speed and would instantly accept full throttle load from 1200 rpm and up!

The only hurdle I see to over come is the packaging.

I am confident that my way of giving the ECU the MAP rather than having the ECU calculate the map is why I was successful. We have tuned by EGT for years and continue to see the relevance when using EFI in correlation to EGT. The increase power came by better fuel atomization. It stands to reason due to the limited time "Tuning" the system that even more power gains are to be realized with more work and data collection/analysis.

I am posting this information so more people will try this simple method and post their results here. I hope you all find the success that I did.

http://translate.google.co.nz/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.pit-lane.biz/t839p15-technique-2-tempset-l-injection&prev=search

[dutchpower]

My cylinder purity not good in sim on new 105. Like 93-94%..
With or without combustion %, set on higher %.
So I assume my purity is higher in real life.
Which I think a lot of this comes back to the new tranfers.

Got this on max power

[teriks]

Riley wrote about it on Pitlane in about the first or second part.
From memory he said something along the lines of we decided to map it as if it was a carb with the same fuel curve ie they superimposed the fuel graph for a carb and set the map to replicate it.
they had great results with the feel ie not twitchy response by making the fueling less than perfect so it behaved like a carb would have.
I think most of the initial work was done on a single cylinder 125cc test mule.

Yes BRC may be worth a re visit but the first time I came across them I realized they were doing nothing on the dyno that I couldn't my self. You will see that they don't let the rev's drop off the pipe and with only one logical injector (two physical injectors firing alternately) I don't think they could have achieved on track drivability.

Over 10,000 rpm there is no escaping the need for staged injection, a small primary and a much bigger secondary. Its an inescapable physical requirement dictated by the time available. And for 10+ bar BMEP you also need to be able to see the changes in air flow when the pipe is working or not, because the motor is very dependent on the pipe for its power. They were also using the Alpha-N methodology and that does not take account of changes in airflow, it is totally a TPS vis RPM thing and half the time you are on the pipe and the AN map is right and half the time you are off the pipe and the AN map would be wrong and over fueling.

I don't think they did it, maybe I am wrong, can anyone post an on board video clip of a EFI BRC on the track.

So much for thinking I found something new on the net, then its old news at ESE, so old I had forgot I read about it here first..
They did have a connection of some kind on the pipe belly in that video thoug, but your most likely correct. Could have been O2, or even pressure to control the power valves. -didnt look closely enough to tell. Oh well..

Just some brute hp..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d3MtfgMalU

Yeah, I have been following that development on FB, thats how I stumbled on the EFI stuff above.
Very impressive kit, but way too much power for my skill level...

[teriks]

Looks like a great indicator. Could be used for real time flow indication with the right transducer. Piezo could work here for sure, I just need to make one that works, preferably directly attached to the pipe.

Yes, at least for WOT. Might be useless at small throttle openings, or not...

The rest of your post is more TZ territory than mine, I enjoy reading the discussion but have nothing to contribute in the electronics department

Multiplier fuel table based on the exhaust pressure pulse value. Easy!

A more basic/robust system could have a table for amount of misfire cycles based on TPS and RPM (to skip or reduce injector duration when misfire is likely), then have the feedback from a transducer (ie; did it fire or not) as learning feedback for the table.

[tdc211]

Got this on max power

that says 85cc, maybe you changed the bore size in sim.
I am sure I don't have to tell you everything that changes when you bore it.

[husaberg]

It will interesting to see how KTM handle this.
Being as they claim they invented TPI and patented it.
Real interesting.

I am all for bringing in the Red Bull ambassadors for questioning.

[Flettner]

I am all for bringing in the Red Bull ambassadors for questioning.

Ha ha love it.