ESE's works engine tuner

**Frits Overmars** · 29th September 2018, 00:09

Originally Posted by crbbt

whom as seen this?

I have

.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/6710...action_generic

**crbbt** · 29th September 2018, 00:27

any dramas with the thread stretching?

**Frits Overmars** · 29th September 2018, 01:25

Originally Posted by crbbt

any dramas with the thread stretching?

Not at all. Mark used brute force to destroy one of his pistons to the extent that the piston pin was torn out of its holes, but the thread remained impeccable.
I have pictures but I'm not sure I'm at liberty to post them.

**F5 Dave** · 29th September 2018, 07:46

I do note he puts the cast piston in backwards. . . Not that I'll cast too many stones since my last brain fart.

So what stops it rotating? I was thinking it must be heavier but he claims significantly lighter. Won't do farcebook maybe there is answers there.

**husaberg** · 29th September 2018, 08:16

Originally Posted by F5 Dave

I do note he puts the cast piston in backwards. . . Not that I'll cast too many stones since my last brain fart.

So what stops it rotating? I was thinking it must be heavier but he claims significantly lighter. Won't do farcebook maybe there is answers there.

its helt by two pins i think y he mentions them in the video
i was thinking same thing about weight only potential difference i see in mass is shorter piston pin?

**Flettner** · 29th September 2018, 08:48

https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregiste...102017102792A1

Does this link work?
KTM have indeed filed for a patent on the TPI system, above is the link.
Fabio from Power CDI found it for me, he suggests it would be a gross injustice if this patent went ahead and I do agree. How will this affect TM for example?
Personally no skin off my nose as I have no financial horse in this race but bugger KTM.

**TZ350** · 29th September 2018, 10:47

.
I have expressed my concerns to the Patent Office, this is where you go to bring things to the German Patent Offices attention:-

https://www.dpma.de/english/our_office/contact/

KTM is trying to Patent knowledge that has been in the public domain for some time and this method they wish to make their own is not their original idea or intellectual property.

DE 10 2017 102 792 A1 2018.08.16DE 10 2017 102 792 A1 2018.08.16

If this matters to you I am happy to provide details.

**crbbt** · 29th September 2018, 11:42

Originally Posted by Frits Overmars

Not at all. Mark used brute force to destroy one of his pistons to the extent that the piston pin was torn out of its holes, but the thread remained impeccable.
I have pictures but I'm not sure I'm at liberty to post them.

Fair enough Frits.

I am guessing that the piece holding the piston pin isn't torqued overly tight and it's the locking pins achieving both anti rotation of the piston plus stopping the two piece moving independently (at TDC and BDC)

anyway cool concept. hopefully he makes some 125 pistons!

**Haufen** · 29th September 2018, 21:46

Originally Posted by TZ350

.
I have expressed my concerns to the Patent Office, this is where you go to bring things to the German Patent Offices attention:-

https://www.dpma.de/english/our_office/contact/

KTM is trying to Patent knowledge that has been in the public domain for some time and this method they wish to make their own is not their original idea or intellectual property.

DE 10 2017 102 792 A1 2018.08.16DE 10 2017 102 792 A1 2018.08.16

If this matters to you I am happy to provide details.

Originally Posted by Flettner

https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregiste...102017102792A1
Does this link work?
KTM have indeed filed for a patent on the TPI system, above is the link.
Fabio from Power CDI found it for me, he suggests it would be a gross injustice if this patent went ahead and I do agree. How will this affect TM for example?
Personally no skin off my nose as I have no financial horse in this race but bugger KTM.

In this application for patent (not a patent, yet), KTM wants to patent an operating strategy for a two-stroke engine.

In a nutshell, their first two claims are:

on a two-stroke engine with transfer port injection mostly against the flow direction of the air, using at least one cylinder with two injectors per cylinder each, they use only one injector at a first load range and both injectors at a second load range. (claim 1) When they use one injector, they switch between left and right injector in an alternating manner. (claim 2).

Is this what you did, too? And did you publish it? And did you publish it before Feb 13th 2017?
If your answer is 3x yes, then you could officially complain and in the final patent KTM will have to drop every claim that has been verified as not invented by KTM (usually, some claims remain anyway, but these may not always be worth the effort holding a patent for the manufacturers).

In case you need help translating or filing the complaint etc. let me know.

**Haufen** · 29th September 2018, 21:54

Just found out they filed for worldwide (WO) patent, too. Not just german (DE). Unfortunately, the patent is still in german language.

If you choose to complain, then complain against the worldwide patent.

https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregiste...g=de&full=true

**ceci** · 29th September 2018, 22:08

Originally Posted by Flettner

[url]https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregister/pat/PatSchrifteneinsicht?docId=DE102017102792A1[

Personally no skin off my nose as I have no financial horse in this race but bugger KTM.

If your invention you want to leave free, you do not have to worry.
The other brands that want to use it are those that have to fight and those if they have economic resources such as KTM

**TZ350** · 29th September 2018, 23:11

Originally Posted by Haufen

In this application for patent (not a patent, yet), KTM wants to patent an operating strategy for a two-stroke engine.

In a nutshell, their first two claims are:

on a two-stroke engine with transfer port injection mostly against the flow direction of the air, using at least one cylinder with two injectors per cylinder each, they use only one injector at a first load range and both injectors at a second load range. (claim 1) When they use one injector, they switch between left and right injector in an alternating manner. (claim 2).

Is this what you did, too? And did you publish it? And did you publish it before Feb 13th 2017?
If your answer is 3x yes, then you could officially complain and in the final patent KTM will have to drop every claim that has been verified as not invented by KTM (usually, some claims remain anyway, but these may not always be worth the effort holding a patent for the manufacturers).

In case you need help translating or filing the complaint etc. let me know.

Thank you for clarifying what the patient application is for. Looks like claim 1, the position of the injectors is not their original idea but claim 2, alternating the injectors for low load and firing them together at higher load is a novel approach.

Originally Posted by Haufen

If you choose to complain, then complain against the worldwide patent.

https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregiste...g=de&full=true

Great, Thanks.

**Norman** · 30th September 2018, 00:12

I think that KTM could be on some thin ice here. Given that it is known before Feb 13th 2017 that the concept is working with both injectors in use at the same time, as KTM describe in Claim 1 for the high load, it could very well be that the idea using only one injector at the time, during low load, does not have enough additional technical height to be regarded as inventive enough for granting the patent. It could be argued that a person skilled in the art, would be able to forsee a possible advantage to use the injectors in an alternating sequence during low load, even though it has not been described before Feb 13th 2017. If that is the case, it is very doubtful if the patent will be granted in the end.
And, If Claim 1 is not accepted as being novel, the subsequent claims 2,3... which refers to Claim 1 will not be granted either.

By sending in the patent application it can (at least from KTMs perspective) give some hesitation to others looking for to use the idea, or something close. Let's hope the Patent Authorities takes a look at it soon.

All in all I think it is more likely this patent will be rejected than accepted. But for this, I do think it is important what TZ350 did, making Authorities aware of what Flettner has done before.

Originally Posted by Haufen

In this application for patent (not a patent, yet), KTM wants to patent an operating strategy for a two-stroke engine.

In a nutshell, their first two claims are:

on a two-stroke engine with transfer port injection mostly against the flow direction of the air, using at least one cylinder with two injectors per cylinder each, they use only one injector at a first load range and both injectors at a second load range. (claim 1) When they use one injector, they switch between left and right injector in an alternating manner. (claim 2).

Is this what you did, too? And did you publish it? And did you publish it before Feb 13th 2017?
If your answer is 3x yes, then you could officially complain and in the final patent KTM will have to drop every claim that has been verified as not invented by KTM (usually, some claims remain anyway, but these may not always be worth the effort holding a patent for the manufacturers).

In case you need help translating or filing the complaint etc. let me know.

**TZ350** · 30th September 2018, 06:14

.
2015 ... BRC EFI 250 twin supercart dyno demo https://youtu.be/dNat9ZwWbq8

BRC used two injectors and alternated between them in a manner similar to KTM's Patent application.

Links sent to me by Husaburg.

http://www.twostrokemotocross.com/fo...?topic=5482.30
he showed pics earlier of the kawasaki
http://www.twostrokemotocross.com/fo...p?topic=4884.0

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1130571193

One link shows the YZ injectors and in another a very dirty well used YZ that demonstrates the system works.

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Both the EFI Kawasaki and EFI Yamaha YZ250 were dyno tested on Team ESE's Dynojet in March 2010. Obviously the concept and bikes were well known before then, I just don't have dates and links, but others might.

To protect Flettners idea of improving 2S's and keeping the concept available as open source for better 2S development by any manufacturer wanting to explore 2S EFI.

It is important for as many people as possible to send info to places that talk about KTM's so called novel idea and to the Patent Office. Trade journalists and the Patent Office can't be expected to do all the heavy lifting on their own discovering what else was out there before KTM.

Originally Posted by Haufen

If you choose to complain, then complain against the worldwide patent.

https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregiste...g=de&full=true

KTM's German Patent Application number:- DE 10 2017 102 792 A1 2018.08.16DE 10 2017 102 792 A1 2018.08.16

I need other peoples help with this, I need people to discover links and send them to the Patent Office. Thanks.

**husaberg** · 30th September 2018, 20:09

Originally Posted by TZ350

.
2015 ... BRC EFI 250 twin supercart dyno demo https://youtu.be/dNat9ZwWbq8

BRC used two injectors and alternated between them in a manner similar to KTM's Patent application.

Links sent to me by Husaburg.

http://www.twostrokemotocross.com/fo...?topic=5482.30
he showed pics earlier of the kawasaki
http://www.twostrokemotocross.com/fo...p?topic=4884.0

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1130571193

One link shows the YZ injectors and in another a very dirty well used YZ that demonstrates the system works.

Both the EFI Kawasaki and EFI Yamaha YZ250 were dyno tested on Team ESE's Dynojet in March 2010. Obviously the concept and bikes were well known before then, I just don't have dates and links, but others might.

To protect Flettners idea of improving 2S's and keeping the concept available as open source for better 2S development by any manufacturer wanting to explore 2S EFI.

It is important for as many people as possible to send info to places that talk about KTM's so called novel idea and to the Patent Office. Trade journalists and the Patent Office can't be expected to do all the heavy lifting on their own discovering what else was out there before KTM.

KTM's German Patent Application number:- DE 10 2017 102 792 A1 2018.08.16DE 10 2017 102 792 A1 2018.08.16

I need other peoples help with this, I need people to discover links and send them to the Patent Office. Thanks.