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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #34846
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    20th April 2011 - 08:45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitro2tfx View Post
    ... the thumbnails show high speed RECORDED pressure data (cylinder, intake, exhaust)
    Thanks Nitro, I love TFX recordings. But yours make me wonder about the high exhaust pressure spike around TDC. Connecting exhaust pipe and crankcase at TDC via a shortened piston skirt would be a bad idea with such a pressure profile. It would also annihilate exhaust wave superposition at EO. For comparison I dug up a 12-year old TFX recording of a 125 cc kart engine at 12775 rpm.
    Its exhaust pressure profile is not ideal either, but it shows quite a difference with yours. What exhaust timing did you use?
    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #34847
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    12th August 2015 - 03:31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Thanks Nitro, I love TFX recordings. But yours make me wonder about the high exhaust pressure spike around TDC. Connecting exhaust pipe and crankcase at TDC via a shortened piston skirt would be a bad idea with such a pressure profile. It would also annihilate exhaust wave superposition at EO. For comparison I dug up a 12-year old TFX recording of a 125 cc kart engine at 12775 rpm.
    Its exhaust pressure profile is not ideal either, but it shows quite a difference with yours. What exhaust timing did you use?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Just to be clear this is not an optimized exhaust, nor optimized engine in any way. We haven't physically done anything to the engine yet other than spruced up the fuel and timing a bit, and added the sensors. What you are looking at is a recording of what things look like inside the engine "as received" (plus ignition timing/fuel) at one engine speed.

    All of the traces are from a stock Banshee engine that has a few typical aftermarket Banshee bolt ons added on, the exhaust is a stock Toomey T6 exhaust (broad powerband pipe), V-Force reeds, 33mm PWK carbs (no Power Jets), Cool Heads, all common as mud Banshee aftermarket bolt-ons lol. Other than that just the ignition timing bumped up and the fuel spruced up.

    Initially we will make some more fuel changes and maybe an intake revision, before doing any porting or exhaust changes. At some power level blowdown will limit things and porting will have to be done before continuing on, but we are over 100 IHP and haven't touched the ports.

    I might add that the recorded data was taken onboard the Banshee on the fly, it was not done on a dyno. Gearing was changed from 14/41 to 19/38. Fast trail riding.

    I will post some more info, different engine speed etc.

  3. #34848
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    The recorded pressure diagrams have one issue that needs addressing.
    Where is the Exhaust sensor in relation to the piston.
    If the distance /time factor is not taken into account by the software , then that spike that is shown at tdc , wont be anywhere near tdc.
    If the sensor is 150mm from the piston , then that spike , a snapshot in time ,will have taken a significant number of degrees of crank rotation to arrive at that point.
    A function of the wave speed , and rpm.
    This is why Neels code has a fixed wave snapshot at the port face , then a second wave showing whats happening at a set distance from the port.
    In this case the pressure diagram is meaningless , but other metrics such as wave Mach can be observed.
    Many highly reputable SAE papers on engine simulation Vs real data , including those of Blair and Fleck et al from Queens , have been presented showing wave forms where this time smear is completely ignored.
    And if one wants to get really pedantic , the pressure traces , should also be labelled as rightward or leftward propogated ie is the pressure rise coming from the port , or the reflected returning pulse.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  4. #34849
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    Portiming124 - Bonjour mon ami . OK so if you are well versed in removing the chrome , and welding the ports or dividers , then that cylinder could easily be fixed.
    If thats the case , then get rid of the A port step , lift the bottom outer corner of the Aux port , and as you say get rid of the second ring and move the top pin over the boost port.
    Then epoxy up the duct roofs to get modern axial angles.
    Depending upon the end use , it would be much easyer to implement reverse stagger , leave the A port low and lift the B , C port 4* of duration higher , like the Aprilia scavenging pattern.
    And please dont put any solder in the cylinder except to check the squish.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  5. #34850
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    12th August 2015 - 03:31
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    The recorded pressure diagrams have one issue that needs addressing.
    Where is the Exhaust sensor in relation to the piston.
    If the distance /time factor is not taken into account by the software , then that spike that is shown at tdc , wont be anywhere near tdc.
    If the sensor is 150mm from the piston , then that spike , a snapshot in time ,will have taken a significant number of degrees of crank rotation to arrive at that point.
    No issue, the sensor is a little over 2 inches from the piston. 6 inches would be WAY too far for the reasons you mentioned, and too close to the piston is also not good as you get localized effects.

    This is just a Toomey T6 pipe, bone stock, not a TFX pipe nor customer pipe, and so far I have only posted at one engine speed, naturally things are different at different engine speeds.

    There are several things wrong with this pipe (easy to see on the trace) if one's goal was max power/torque, the T6 is a decent broad powerband pipe. At some point we may record pressures for a higher power type pipe, just for interest's sake and comparison sake. I can post that too, then we can see how much is left on the table beyond that. There's plenty of power to be made yet before getting into another pipe though.

  6. #34851
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    15th May 2017 - 14:26
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    Quote Originally Posted by philou View Post
    Any idea which resin to use for mould intake rubber?

    Philou.

    Did you get a response from anyone or work it out. I am interested also


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #34852
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    18th April 2017 - 23:08
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyonly View Post
    Philou.

    Did you get a response from anyone or work it out. I am interested also


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Do not know if I know any good resin, but 3d printing might be an option

    I think intakes are often made of PF rubber

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d9FAEArjMms
    No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.

  8. #34853
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    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    Pretty sure n the site or one of the videos he covers what the rubber was for the RD ones have posted them before he does a very nice job.
    https://precisiontradingsystems.com/inlet_rubbers.htm
    https://precisiontradingsystems.com/inlet_videos.htm
    Also a guy on the KR1 site was making 35mm intakes, BDK were/are selling them.

    http://www.kr-1s.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5197
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  9. #34854
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    27th October 2013 - 08:53
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    and move the top pin over the boost port.
    .

    that reminds me i just did another set the other day. tough little buggers trying not to blow the corner edge off and you only got one shot to get it right. proffesional machinist in oregon united states fucked up my yami cylinders and punched them to 68mm instead of 66 but to make matters worse the left cyl bore vertical centerline didnt intersect the comb chamber center. no choice but to drop in sleeves and start over . the only good news is im back at 64mm
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  10. #34855
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muhr View Post
    Do not know if I know any good resin, but 3d printing might be an option
    Thanks you reply,

    In 3d printing what is the duration over time?

    How much is the shore hardness?

  11. #34856
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    And if one wants to get really pedantic, the pressure traces should also be labelled as rightward or leftward propogated ie is the pressure rise coming from the port, or the reflected returning pulse.
    Call me pedantic.Putting two sensors some distance apart, say a distance equivalent to 20 crankshaft-degrees at rpm of max.torque, would give me all the info I need.

    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Portiming124 - Bonjour mon ami.... Please dont put any solder in the cylinder except to check the squish.
    Pauvre ami, he has to live with a language in which the word souder can mean weld, solder and braze .

  12. #34857
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    28th October 2018 - 06:30
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    Hello.

    To introduce myself first. I am Kristjan from Slovenia and I race with Tomos 50cc at Grobnik circuit at classic 50 event. Did also some 60cc kart racing as a kid.
    I built Tomos D6 replica and now building Tomos GP77 replica with some freetech50 stuff developed (I must find 50cc thread here to post some more).

    I am reading this thread for long time now (still trying to catch up at page 1500.. ). It is awesome to read from you guys and thanks for sharing all your experience.

    To add a little of my own. I 3D printed intake manifold for my Cagiva Mito for Dellorto 38 carb. First out of plastic (black part) with rubber (white part). You can see how I joined them together. Plastic cracked after few dyno pulls. Than I printed it completly from rubber and when I bolted it down, it made a little opening on sides. I quick fixed that because I needed bike for riding to work. I also printed matching insert.

    Further development would be to print first few layers, insert laser cut alu or steel sheet plate and print the rest. Plate would distribute pressure evenly on cylinder for nice seal. Unfortunately development was stopped as I crashed with my Mito and broke my back, dislocated hip etc. Now I came from rehab after 6 months, so I have some free time to further read this forum and maybe contribute
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  13. #34858
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    13th December 2018 - 18:06
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    Very nice.

  14. #34859
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    You are dead right Frits ,two sensors would give exactly what is needed , but with the processing power in my phone its way easyer to track the crank rotation and the wave amplitude against time.
    The whole return wave is displaced in time, thus can be calculated to be shown graphically with the correct relationship to the crank sensor.
    Still cant believe the intellectual Hp that completely missed that basic physics.

    And in the spirit of learning something every day , the Mito reed stuffer as shown would be easily the worst shape I have tested on the flow bench , and dyno.
    The shape should be convex on the sides , not tapering inwards to nothing.
    Worst shape , to best , we are talking nearly 2 Hp in 50.

    The worst bastardization of so called English is done by the Yanks - they invented the word " soder " that no one else in the world can even remotely understand.
    Simply as they are too lazy to include the L in solder.
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    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  15. #34860
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    28th October 2018 - 06:30
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    As I said, I was in a hurry to get on the road, so I modeled first shape that I imagined
    Thanks for that. Would be interesting to try it on a dyno when I repair the bike.

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