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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #35206
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    12th March 2010 - 16:56
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    TT500 F9 Kawasaki EFI
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    Hamilton New Zealand
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    MMM, the smell of an E85 fueled injected twostroke with Micro T oil, on the dyno. O, and the noise, neighbor's love it
    The 360 is running well but needs the extra fueling with temp graph sorted and the injection timing is ???? And a couple of sensors need calibrating.
    Tempted to just put an air filter on it and run it around the yard. Probably getting a little ahead of myself, there will be more problems, there always are in the early days of development when you think you know what you are doing but really, you don't.
    Its just exciting to have it running and being able to start and stop it at will. 350 Kawasaki program is in it now, a good base to start with.

  2. #35207
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    25th March 2004 - 17:22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post


    Ok, so she is not riding a motorcycle but there you go.......
    Well, I'm not seeing any right hand turns. Bit more practice and she'll get there I'm sure.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  3. #35208
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    21st March 2014 - 22:00
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    Quote Originally Posted by katinas View Post
    For comparisons add Sugaya kit pipe dimensions, that specially developed for NS 250/400 vertical cylinder (without ATAC). Works in good way from 7000 to 10500 rpm. Tuned length 936 mm. Its not usable for 500 kit, but maybe helps for std, one exhaust cylinder, setup
    Thank's a lot for that info, will see how I can use this as a starting point.
    Do you have the ignition timing curve for the stock NS400R?

  4. #35209
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    28th October 2018 - 06:30
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    Tomos D6, Cagiva Mito
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    As I will make variable rotary valve, I wonder, what is correct way to look at wave action in EngMod? Do I need to look Pcrank behaviour?

    I can shift complete disc forward and backward in total of 30°. For now i used fix timings 140°/85°.
    Here is Pcrank plot for different rpm.
    It's 50cc with max power at 16800rpm and usable range is from 12500rpm.

    Picture of crankshaft. It still needs finishing.
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  5. #35210
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    20th April 2011 - 08:45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peljhan View Post
    As I will make variable rotary valve, I wonder, what is correct way to look at wave action in EngMod? Do I need to look Pcrank behaviour? I can shift complete disc forward and backward in total of 30°. For now i used fix timings 140°/85°. Here is Pcrank plot for different rpm.
    It's 50cc with max power at 16800rpm and usable range is from 12500rpm. Picture of crankshaft. It still needs finishing.
    Max power at 16800 rpm seems pretty optimistic; most of today's 50cc racing engines run out of breath above 15000 rpm. But I must say that your cylinder ( https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...oundry/page323 ) looks quite promising. And I like the way you are going to vary your rotary inlet disc position.

  6. #35211
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    7th October 2015 - 07:49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 41juergen View Post
    Thank's a lot for that info, will see how I can use this as a starting point.
    Do you have the ignition timing curve for the stock NS400R?
    Like I write in earlier post, can’t find ignition timing curve, looks like things lost with old comp.
    Remember that after squish /compression correction to usable range from abnormal mass production, gains in upper range, comes only with AVGAZ. With RON 98, same effect comes only after timing curve was retarded 7 degrees, with adjustable lobe plate on main rotor.
    But its better to start with RGV 250 ignition timing curve, that worked far better for NS 400 than std, in the whole range.

    Add pipes effects for NS 250/400 one cylinder test engine ( with Honda RS 250 ND5 ignition ). Blue is Sugaya, red Honda RS 125 type. On the road, with RS type exhaust, bike goes much much faster.

    If DMR 500 kit cylinder reed house adopted for stock reed cage, it is possible to gain more hp with KTM sx 85/ Husky TC 85 V force red cage. Mismatch between holes just 0.5 mm and no more any modifications needed.
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  7. #35212
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    7th October 2015 - 07:49
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    Few pictures from GP racers. Honda NSR 500 under-engine position type 1987-1991 cooling pump and cranks from NSR 250 NV2 1992-1997 and 1993 RGV 500 xr79. Looks like NSR 250 con rod trusted at small end as big end without side washers, but roller cage no side washers too. Good lubrication from side of smaller crank web.
    Indeed, things that maybe never became history.
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  8. #35213
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    Peljhan , as you are varying the timing by moving the whole disc , forward and back - this means the duration is fixed . I would start with 90* closing
    as it is proven that carburation is a nightmare past this with very little extra power.
    Then run the sim in 1* retarded closing sequentially.
    This will give an indication of what timing suits each rpm best.

    But this gives odd sets of timing ie at 90* closing you have 135* opening , so radical closing , but average opening.
    Back at 80* closing you have 145* opening , so very mild closing , but very radical opening.
    Again , past 145* , tuning is a nightmare - and this will not show up as bad carburation issues in the sim , as in reality.
    This is why I believe Fletts servo gib system is superior , especially when operating both sides independantly.

    Many 4T cars had VVT on the inlet only , and this worked well , but VVT on both cams gave a huge increase in power range.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  9. #35214
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    This is why I believe Fletts servo gib system is superior , especially when operating both sides independantly.
    Amen to that. I admired the simplicity of Peljhans approach rather than its efficacy.

  10. #35215
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    28th October 2018 - 06:30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Max power at 16800 rpm seems pretty optimistic; most of today's 50cc racing engines run out of breath above 15000 rpm. But I must say that your cylinder ( https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...oundry/page323 ) looks quite promising. And I like the way you are going to vary your rotary inlet disc position.
    Are you refering to Freetech bikes, or classic, like Kreidlers? I believe freetech guys usually keep rpm low to get engines more reliable?
    But why do they run out of breath? Not enough blowdown? Bikes in the 80s ran to 18krpm.
    I also made crankshaft with higher inertia, as low inertia seems to be problem for high rpm.

    Case variation would probably be better, but when I designed this engine I did not think of that. If this desigh will not work, I will try double rotodisc plates, one being variable and other fixed on hub (if that works). If anything of that doesn't work, I will fix disc and make it old way.

    Setting this bike will be a pain

  11. #35216
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    12th March 2010 - 16:56
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    https://youtu.be/977BWjCMC8E Crappy upside down video, but you get the picture.

  12. #35217
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    18th April 2017 - 23:08
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peljhan View Post
    Are you refering to Freetech bikes, or classic, like Kreidlers? I believe freetech guys usually keep rpm low to get engines more reliable?
    But why do they run out of breath? Not enough blowdown? Bikes in the 80s ran to 18krpm.
    I also made crankshaft with higher inertia, as low inertia seems to be problem for high rpm.
    Hi what a nice job you have done so far.
    I have thought about this regarding my own engine in terms of rpm and stroke vs peak hp. Here you could take an RSA as a reference with a 42 mm carb and just do:
    21 * 21 * π / 13000 * 16800/125 * 50 / π = √ * 2≈30mm
    Then unfortunately you have this with acceleration. For every time the port opens, an acceleration time is needed and it is controlled by the pressure difference. which does not increase with RPM. That is where the theory falls and the reality is unfortunately different.
    Then it depends much on what your goals are in terms of power, To rev 18k is not so much needed
    That's my view on it, Interesting to hear others!
    No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.

  13. #35218
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    The carb size dilema can be helped alot by using a Lectron HV style venturi carb.
    They have a 4mm smaller radiused entry behind the slide , so at 1/2 throttle it appears to be a 26mm bore.
    At WOT they actually flow more air on the bench than a PWM or Dellorto 30mm etc.

    Second issue with going from 15000 rpm to 18000.
    STA wise this is easily achievable , but you have to be aware of power range with respect to gear drops.
    A gear drop of 5% @ 15000 = 750 rpm , 5% at 18000 = 900 rpm , using the same gearbox.

    But in principal , as power has a direct relationship to rpm , as long as torque can be maintained , jumping from 15000 to 18000 means
    an increase of 3000/15000 = 20% more theoretical power available.

    As far as the reality of the available power at higher rpm is concerned there are two factors .
    The first is inlet tuning - this will for sure have much higher amplitude wave inertia effects , but this effect is very much second fiddle to the pipe in a 2T.
    With 20% more rpm , it will come down to one major factor - can the new pipe length generate significantly more superposition when working with the new port timing combination.
    If so , this can and will generate big increases in scavenging and plugging wave action at the port.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  14. #35219
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    20th April 2011 - 08:45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peljhan View Post
    Are you refering to Freetech bikes, or classic, like Kreidlers? I believe freetech guys usually keep rpm low to get engines more reliable?
    But why do they run out of breath? Not enough blowdown? Bikes in the 80s ran to 18krpm.
    I know the stories about classic 50s revving to 18000 rpm, and those stories seem to grow at a rate of 500 rpm per year, depending on who is telling them, but the best classics, the Van Veen Kreidlers and Jan Thiels Bultaco and Garelli 50cc engines, produced maximum power below 16000 rpm.
    The Freetech guys have discovered that with the cylinders they are using, maximum power is best found between 14000 and 15000 rpm, and this is not a reliability issue but a time.area issue, regarding both blowdown and transfer time.area. I have yet to see a 50cc cylinder with the same specific time.areas as the Aprilia RSA125, though your cylinder might come close, by the looks of it.

  15. #35220
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    28th October 2018 - 06:30
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    @Muhr, sorry I didn't understood your calculation, are you refering to carb size? I think that is not a bottleneck in engine like that.
    But you got me thinking, maybe your theory that mixture mass doesn't have time to accelerate is more applicable to transfers and mixture escaping into exhaust port and shoving it back to cylinder.

    I will be using smartcarb 28mm. I still need to drill holes in it to make power jet. And to get one in Europe, it took me 80 conversation emails and 18 months to get it, but they forgot to include two metering rods. No bill at purchase included either. Could write whole day about that but I will not drop on that level.
    Anyway, I wouldn't go that path again. Next time would go with normal or Lectron 30mm-something carb or make my own as at Grobnik circuit where we race 80% of lap is WOT.

    @Wobbly, I will try to sim it like you said.
    I do not worry about gear drops that much. If i will ever be able to ride that bike I will be happy as we have a leg feature in common Wob , so now i will focus more on R&D. Also there is exhaust valve on cylinder and I am thinking of trying Frits variable exhaust nozzle.
    About variating disc only dyno test will show if it is for any use. I want to make some starting base in EngMod just to know where to go, as there is million combinations how to set it.
    Max power rpm will also be set with testing, I just got to those numbers as couldn't produce decent power in lower revs in EngMod, but that could be misleading for me.

    @Frits, in past 15 years, I allways saw 18k stated for those classics, but maybe this was more of a max rpm engine reached if one rev it to death, and I believe you, it could be more for wow effect in magazines. I think, first thing I should worry is BE bearing reliability. And this variating design is more complicated as it looks. Because of carb in it's way, mechanism is like swiss watch. I believe Flettners case vary would be easier to make.

    Thank you Frits for having a faith in my moped
    Here is picture of ports (it looks enormously big as it is wide lens mode to make decent pic). I know outer-lower aux exhaust edge is quite close to A port, should make more teardrop shape, but at casting this core moved down 1mm and that shape is all I could save out of it.
    In addition, exhaust duct is very good cooled, even around power valve, duct has proper length and Wobbly design implemented. Would make water path over cylinder better but as I was stubborn with classic outside look design, I made best I could for now.
    And for you Frits, picture of mechanism in cad. Engine is allmost made, I hope I will start testing in few months.
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