ESE's works engine tuner

[jamathi]

Bugger, i knew it was the flow rig but it assumed it served as the mule engine as well.
Attachment 349205Attachment 349207
looking back through your posts its written any times that the Aprilis outputs were always measured at the gearbox shaft.





I assume inside cell dyno photos were frowned upon so i only have these
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i did have this below from Frits one but i am not sure what it was from.

Attachment 349208
this looks to be off the crankshaft

Not from Aprilia... This is from Honda!

[Niels Abildgaard]

Chain sprocket shaft.
Max torque at 12250
Max power at 13000

Measuring power at the crankshaft is very impractical....

Thank You for confirming my instincts.
Having more than the absolute minimum metal spinning at 15000rpm is asking for unnessecary trouble.
What reduction ratio /gear step did You use?

[Haufen]

i did have this below from Frits one but i am not sure what it was from.

Attachment 349208
this looks to be off the crankshaft

Okay Jan says Honda...

This is from SAE paper 2004-01-3561 - Validation of a Computer Simulation of a High Performance Two-Stroke Motorcycle Racing Engine by Fleck et. al (QUB). They use a Honda RS125 engine and fuel injection.

[wobbly]

Yes the sectional pipe was used at QUB and then was given to Canterbury Uni , where it was used in several Phd theses I supervised.
The kit was offerred to me a couple of years ago , but I didnt think I would ever use it , now EngMod is so good - i think it was dumped.

My engine dyno has a ratio drop from a TM crank to the inertia wheel of 4.3 - this replicates the acceleration rate of a kart on track in 6th gear.
The disc is 425mm dia 100mm wide, with added inertia from a Toyota 4AGE auto starter flex plate and ring gear with 106 teeth used by the ecu hall effect pickup.

[Muhr]

I have this if anyone ever needs it

[41juergen]

How do I need to change the pipe temps in EngMot when running a stainless pipe? I use Wob's recomendation for the carbon steel pipes with approx. 325 °C at the lower end up th 425°C at max power and 450°C for overrev...

[Haufen]

where it was used in several Phd theses I supervised.

If you supervised PhD theses, does that mean you hold a PhD, too? Are these theses - or yours - publicly available? Or maybe some of the papers which had been published at the time? Interesting reading is always welcome.

[Vannik]

How do I need to change the pipe temps in EngMot when running a stainless pipe? I use Wob's recomendation for the carbon steel pipes with approx. 325 °C at the lower end up th 425°C at max power and 450°C for overrev...

Based on the dyno curves Frits posted:

1. At start of the powerband the stainless pipe is shifted 250rpm to the right
2. At max power the stainless pipe is shifted 500rpm to the right
3. At 1000rpm above max power rpm the stainless and mild steel pipes have same value.

I suggest you experiment with the prescribed temperatures to match this unless someone has a better idea or better data.

[wobbly]

Haufen , as Neels would say im a degree short of a Doc - only a Masters.
I have no idea what the setup is for external access to theses , I of course had mine and the supervised ones on old hard drives , but I will ask what is needed to get access
thru the Uni library.

[Muhr]

How do I need to change the pipe temps in EngMot when running a stainless pipe? I use Wob's recomendation for the carbon steel pipes with approx. 325 °C at the lower end up th 425°C at max power and 450°C for overrev...

Hi we have seen very little difference in material but a significant difference in thickness when we tested.
Below is with stainless steel 0.8mm 125cc. (I spray it step by step from 13000 therefore this exhaust temp)

[wobbly]

I dont get what you are saying there Muhr , stainless is illegal in KZ anyway.
And your water temp is way too hot , as is the egt - no one could run anything like those temps on legal fuel ( 110 yes ) , plus are you are using the tiny 5mm threaded probes that read way high as they
are too short.
The R1 pipe was designed to be run at 640*C in the header , with the probe tip on the centerline , as this is the practical deto limited temp for the fastest team engines on CIK 100.

[Muhr]

I dont get what you are saying there Muhr , stainless is illegal in KZ anyway.
And your water temp is way too hot , as is the egt - no one could run anything like those temps on legal fuel ( 110 yes ) , plus are you are using the tiny 5mm threaded probes that read way high as they
are too short.
The R1 pipe was designed to be run at 640*C in the header , with the probe tip on the centerline , as this is the practical deto limited temp for the fastest team engines on CIK 100.

I would say that:
Exhaust
Ignition system
Carburettor
Powerjet / solinoid
Compression ratio
And the engine itself
would be illegal in kz.
The only thing that would meet the regulations would be the fuel.
jokes aside it is not a kz and we run with electronic powerjet with ignition every third revolution at throttle release, which pushes up EGT.
As for the sensor, we use below.
The image of the exhaust refers to the one in stainless steel.
We hope to be able to find a way to bring down the water temp with more coolers.

[41juergen]

I would say that:
Exhaust
Ignition system
Carburettor
Powerjet / solinoid
Compression ratio
And the engine itself
would be illegal in kz.
The only thing that would meet the regulations would be the fuel.
jokes aside it is not a kz and we run with electronic powerjet with ignition every third revolution at throttle release, which pushes up EGT.
As for the sensor, we use below.
The image of the exhaust refers to the one in stainless steel.
We hope to be able to find a way to bring down the water temp with more coolers.

Wob, what diameter of the temp sensor do you run? I use typically the NiCr-Ni 1,5mm thermocouples...

[Tim Ey]

I would say that:
electronic powerjet with ignition every third revolution at throttle release, which pushes up EGT.

Hi Muhr
I do not get it. Do you miss every third ignition or do you perform an ignition only every third revolution?
And most importantly: At which rpm / occasion do you do so? Whilst shifting down? Whilst braking?

[wobbly]

Muhr , thats what had me confused , with a C and a R1 TM KZ pipe in the picture.
The sensor is exactly what I was refering to - when used on a KZ pipe it is way too short ,so being close to the header wall it reads high, and being fully enclosed its way too slow reacting to temp change .
I use Stinger probes from EGT Industries , they are 5mm (3/16" ) diameter , but have an exposed thermo tip and can be fitted to be exactly on the header centerline.
They are the only commercial sensor I have found with a 2 year guarantee , ive used and sold literally hundreds of them for over 15 years , and never had a failure.

Electronic powerjets are normally used to compensate for the fact that carbs naturally become progressively richer over the top of the powerband.
They can be switched off completely ( most do ) or can be PWM pulsed on/off to get a more progressive fuel curve.
But some ECU can also be used to prevent a rich , unburnt mixture from cooling down the pipe on overun into corners , by using a lookup table of rpm and TPS.