ESE's works engine tuner

[kel]

Good to see the student loan being spent on something useful, I bought a CR125 with mine (many years ago of course)

[ac3_snow]

The theory was that with the intake timing tuned for 10-11K there was no need for the reed to extend the working revs. I'm not sure why it turned out to be such a nice engine, see the graph green line labelled KR100.

I was under the impression that the reeds worked at lower revs and helped to increase the lowdown power? (I realise this also depends on the thickness off reed used)

finding an ignition is my next duty, I looked at the KX80 as you suggested tezee but they all seemed semi pricey, for this reason I grabbed a cheap RM80. Turned out to be an expensive mistake as the taper is different
So back to looking at KX80s again and if anyone wants a rm80 ignition let me know, $70ono!

[TZ350]

Interesting bit of reading......... http://www.saltmine.org.uk/dale/dale-faq.htm

And a down loadable PDF of Dale Alexanders work with RD's http://www.saltmine.org.uk/pdfs/dale-faq+p.pdf

And a bit about jets thats worth a look http://home.arcor.de/martin.kieltsch...em_english.pdf

[TZ350]

A place that dynos products and publishes the results.
http://www.oocities.org/gtthunder.geo/testbed.html

Some interesting Dyno Graphs.



Like this "O" ring chain power loss comparison, not much in it apparently.



And these MX80 dyno runs, not much point in running MX80's in Buckets as we already make better power.



Even with all the fruit the 80cc MX'rs arn't that great.



The Team ESE GP125 of mine compairs pretty well to this 99 Suzuki RM125 MX'r, and thats water cooled with power valves.

[bucketracer]

Pick up some bits and bobs for your Derbi here and get 22hp (DIN at the crank):- http://www.rrd-preparation.com/kit-8...n4krhae3k47ap2

And you won't need to do a lot of hard work or spend much on dyno time as its all been done for you.

Famous kit MALOSSI MHR TEAM used for various cup MALOSSI GP 80 and trophies



Technical summary:

Real cubic capacity 78,6cc in race origin 40mm (rod 90mm on the origin) compression Report/ratio advised 1:15,4
Spacing advised segment ends: 0,15mm
Play piston/minimum cylinder: 0,051 has 0,059mm
Volume of room advised: 5,4cm3
Squish advised 0,55mm
Announced power MALOSSI MHR: 22cv has 12000 turns/minutes
Couples announced MALOSSI MHR: 13kgm with 11750 turns/minutes
Diagrams 189° for the exhaust and 129° for the admission
Selling price advised MALOSSI MHR: 424,98 euros



There is an interesting port map in the picture, it shows the main Ex port at 62% of bore dia.

They say you will need the race crankshaft to go with the cylinder kit:- http://www.rrd-preparation.com/crank...oducts_id/1214



Summary:
Rod cuts origin 85mm
Full masses for a maximum of precompression
Dynamic balancing 15.500 turns/reality minutes carried out for a maximum of inertia without vibrationsReinforced to the maximum Needle cage Ø 12X15X15mm (size reinforced origin)
Silks: Ø17mm cuts origin
Keying for lighting: site of origin
Race: 39mm (origin)
Ø16mm crank pin

Derbis are obviously modern motors, real gems and beautifully made.

But its instructive to note that those who were most vocal about TeeZee’s 24/28 carb, although maybe legal were adamant it was definitely against the spirt of Buckets, and they are by in large the same people who are OK with these Race/ Performance Enhancing parts developed for European Bikes.

Wonder if Dave would like to post his motor details here?

One thing is for sure though, by applying some personal effort to the traditional Bucket engines one can still develop something that makes more and better power, it just takes a little skill.

[jasonu]

Pick up some bits and bobs for your Derbi here and get 22hp (DIN at the crank):- http://www.rrd-preparation.com/kit-8...n4krhae3k47ap2

And you won't need to do a lot of hard work or spend much on dyno time as its all been done for you.

Famous kit MALOSSI MHR TEAM used for various cup MALOSSI GP 80 and trophies



Technical summary:

Real cubic capacity 78,6cc in race origin 40mm (rod 90mm on the origin) compression Report/ratio advised 1:15,4
Spacing advised segment ends: 0,15mm
Play piston/minimum cylinder: 0,051 has 0,059mm
Volume of room advised: 5,4cm3
Squish advised 0,55mm
Announced power MALOSSI MHR: 22cv has 12000 turns/minutes
Couples announced MALOSSI MHR: 13kgm with 11750 turns/minutes
Diagrams 189° for the exhaust and 129° for the admission
Selling price advised MALOSSI MHR: 424,98 euros



There is an interesting port map in the picture, it shows the main Ex port at 62% of bore dia.

They say you will need the race crankshaft to go with the cylinder kit:- http://www.rrd-preparation.com/crank...oducts_id/1214



Summary:
Rod cuts origin 85mm
Full masses for a maximum of precompression
Dynamic balancing 15.500 turns/reality minutes carried out for a maximum of inertia without vibrationsReinforced to the maximum Needle cage Ø 12X15X15mm (size reinforced origin)
Silks: Ø17mm cuts origin
Keying for lighting: site of origin
Race: 39mm (origin)
Ø16mm crank pin

WTF its all legal for Buckets because you can fit lights to it........ apparently.

Keying for lighting: site of origin

In my opinion, there are several ways to approach Bucketting.
Say someone went out and spent a good sized chunk of cash on something modern with a nice frame, suspension, wheels and motor and then tweak it with not a lot more cash but a lot of thinking and some DIY where ever possible.
Then compare that with someone else who might buy a $150 old commuter then spend countless hours and $100 there and $200 there over say 3 years to get where the afore mentioned person is. (an RS frame and wheels will cost $750+)
If you add the $'s drip fed a bit at a time in the 2nd senario you will almost certainly see there will be buggar all difference between the two approaches to the sport. If anything the 1st person probably has spent less in the long run and quite possibly still has the better bike.
Whatever floats your boat.

[bucketracer]

In my opinion, there are several ways to approach Bucketting. Whatever floats your boat.

Actually I agree, but I had intended my post to be seen as, more about the hypocrisy of trying to stall TeeZee's carb idea by claiming it was against the spirit/intent of Buckets while promoting/using parts that most would think were not in the spirit or intent themselves.

[jasonu]

Actually I agree, but I had intended my post to be seen as, more about the hypocrisy of trying to stall TeeZee's carb idea by claiming it was against the spirit/intent of Buckets while promoting/using parts that most would think were not in the spirit or intent themselves.

My slant on the carb wrangle was that the carb size should be measured at the same place the manufacturer who produced the carb measured it at. It still is.
TZ himself has stated the carb restriction is not limiting the HP he has found. Just look at his most recent results posted here, a fat 27hp with a 24mm carb. If that bike rides as good as the graph looks it will be killer.

[bucketracer]

24mm carb for a 125 two stroke needs to be measured 24mm over the area where the slide runs, when Jason ,M green and myself made up these rule we did our home work,

My slant on the carb wrangle was that the carb size should be measured at the same place the manufacturer who produced the carb measured it at. It still is.

That all sounds good, not what the rules say, but keep carb development within the original spirit and intent of Buckets can't argue with that.

I think there were also other noble ideas like, preventing the Air-force boys bringing after market performance parts back from overseas, the spirit and intent was that it had to be original/modified or home made parts from engines recognized as "non competition".

The spirit and intent of Buckets when the rules were setup, was also, to not use store brought hot up bits, do I understand that correctly? am I wrong?

So are these factory made performance/race parts from Europe within the original spirit and intent of Buckets.

I don't think so, what’s your take on it?

[jasonu]

That all sounds good, keep carb development within the original spirit and intent of Buckets can't argue with that.
If you dig up my replys to this a few months ago you will see that I talked about 'clarifying or re wording' the rule stating exactly where the measurement should be taken. I kinda think this subject is a dead horse now as TZ who was (for want of a better word) challengeing the rule with his carb innovations has stated the 24mm rule is not the limiting factor on the pursuit of HP and has proved this with his latest power gains.

I think there were also other noble ideas like, preventing the Air-force boys bringing after market performance parts back from overseas, the original spirit and intent was that it had to be original/modified or home made parts.
That is before I got involved so I don't really know. Ask Mike Green or Kevin Gray, they were right in the thick of it.

The spirit and intent of Buckets when the rules were setup, was to not use store brought hot up bits, do I understand that correctly? am I wrong or have things changed?
Were there store bought hot up bits available in those days? I think not so the original bucketteers probably didn't consider this point. (in my opinion)



So are these factory made performance/race parts from Europe within the original spirit and intent of Buckets.

I don't think so, what’s your take on it?

Not totally sure. If the parts in question meet the 'non comp' rule then wouldn't they be legal??? I doubt the original bucketteers thought it would get to this.

[wobbly]

The Derbi Mallosi MHR "kit" is made specifically for scooter racing, not as a replacement for a road bike setup, its illegal as it can get.
Where as in all other sports I have been involved with the carb size is nominated as whatever is the min cross sectional area, its position in the inlet tract is undefined.
Now,if someone wanted to use a 38mm powerjet carb, and sleeve it down some where within its body to 24mm then so what.
The European 50cc race rules have two sizes allowed, 22mm for "as made" carbs and
20mm for sleeved down items with venturis or whatever.

[Rick 52]

RS frame and wheels for $750 ......double that and if you can find any then spare wheels $400 discs and so on ...

[jasonu]

RS frame and wheels for $750 ......double that and if you can find any then spare wheels $400 discs and so on ...

I found a 95 (honda) RS 125 frame with subframe for $500, shock for $200, forks for $350, swingarm for $200,all from NZ. Linkages $25, Aprillia rs125 triple clamps for $50 UKebay. Front disk (actually got 2 and the bolts)ex GSXR1000 $10 USA craigslist. Already have wheels. Will have to make a lot of stuff like adaptors for forks, caliper and disk, front wheel spacers and axel, will make bolts where possible, will buy hard to make swinmgarm and engine mount bolts probably $50 each. Still on the lookout for a seat, radiator and tank.
Some will say that is a lot of $'s. My thinking is to build something as modern as possible that will hopefully stay competitive for a long time.

[TZ350]

I found a 95 (honda) RS 125 frame with subframe ...... My thinking is to build something as modern as possible that will hopefully stay competitive for a long time.

I would have to say the RS is the best bet, but something for those of us who find a RS physically to small for comfort.

1991 3Ln FZR250 roller $600 http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=370679045

With the original alloy wheels mine comes in at 93kg with a splash of fuel and Chambers FZR with wire wheels is 81, and I think NedKellys Honda RS was 72. (all weighed on the Mt Welly Kart track scales)

[Buckets4Me]

RS frame and wheels for $750 ......double that and if you can find any then spare wheels $400 discs and so on ...

rs with spares for $750 just look and jump when they come up

it was a better option that upgrading the suspention and brakes on my bike anyway

and Neds was $2000 with an rs125 engine and brand new tyres ($600)
(sell the engine and off you go)