ESE's works engine tuner

[Flettner]

Curious....

Do you mind sharing the ignition curve you are running?

https://youtu.be/8gfTSOqdQI8?si=nnXkEanjpG27JmFU

This what is in the AG at the moment.
To help with shaky picture / video, 2000 - 30 degrees
At 6500 starts reducing, 11000 at 12 degrees and reduced from there to 5 at 12500. We never got there.
At 11500 its 10 dgrees.

[ApolloMotoMoto]

...At 6500 starts reducing,

11000 at 12 degrees...

Okay, so I understand you have the powervalve cylinder comming, but...

I have asked Wayne Wright about what RPM you should start pulling timing when you DONT have a powervalve:

Here is what I remember him saying;

-With a powervalve you can get away with pulling timing where you are now, around 66% of peak torque.

You dont have the torque curve posted with the HP curve, but given the timing and the size of the engine, I am betting with peak HP at 11k, peak torque is really close to 10k.

10k rpm x 66% = 6,600 RPM.

So, you are currently pulling timing right around exactly 66% of peak torque, around the ideal point to pull timing when you DO have a powervalve.

-When you DONT have a powervale, you cant pull timing that early because there is no powervalve to help you through the torque dip AT 66%.

Looking at your chart, I would expiriment with pulling timing later and later than 6,500.

Pulling timing somewhere after 6,500, maybe even waiting till around 8,000 to pull the timing looks like it would do quite a bit to fill in that hole.

In order to keep the top-end of the curve where its at now I would slide in a couple more set points:

-15deg @10,000rpm
-12deg @11,000rpm
-10deg @11,500rpm
-5deg @12,500rpm


You can see the results of pulling timing at 6,500 right on your dyno graph.

Annotated Dyno Graph for reference: https://ibb.co/t8s73j1

-250 RPM's after you pull the timing at 6,500 the powercurve starts to crash at 6,750, and doesn't start recovering again until around 8,000.


Do you have the torque curve you can share?

[ApolloMotoMoto]

Image of Flettners Timing Curve: https://ibb.co/3vtFtjz

[Flettner]

Okay, so I understand you have the powervalve cylinder comming, but...

I have asked Wayne Wright about what RPM you should start pulling timing when you DONT have a powervalve:

Here is what I remember him saying;

-With a powervalve you can get away with pulling timing where you are now, around 66% of peak torque.

You dont have the torque curve posted with the HP curve, but given the timing and the size of the engine, I am betting with peak HP at 11k, peak torque is really close to 10k.

10k rpm x 66% = 6,600 RPM.

So, you are currently pulling timing right around exactly 66% of peak torque, around the ideal point to pull timing when you DO have a powervalve.

-When you DONT have a powervale, you cant pull timing that early because there is no powervalve to help you through the torque dip AT 66%.

Looking at your chart, I would expiriment with pulling timing later and later than 6,500.

Pulling timing somewhere after 6,500, maybe even waiting till around 8,000 to pull the timing looks like it would do quite a bit to fill in that hole.

In order to keep the top-end of the curve where its at now I would slide in a couple more set points:

-15deg @10,000rpm
-12deg @11,000rpm
-10deg @11,500rpm
-5deg @12,500rpm


You can see the results of pulling timing at 6,500 right on your dyno graph.

Annotated Dyno Graph for reference: https://ibb.co/t8s73j1

-250 RPM's after you pull the timing at 6,500 the powercurve starts to crash at 6,750, and doesn't start recovering again until around 8,000.


Do you have the torque curve you can share?

If I leave the timing at 30 degrees any later than 6500 I feel detonation. As it is now, nothing, clean.
Im not too concerned as the water cooled powervalve cylinder will be operational soon.
I'll test running a 20 degree reverse taper cone as well instead of this 17 degree one Im useing at the moment. And shorten them up a little as Id like to see 12,000, brobably just enough by the steeper taper. I'll measure it clearly.

[ApolloMotoMoto]

Reference Image of Aprilia RSA timing curve: https://ibb.co/VMkxZ0M

(Powervalve Engine)

Timing Pulled from the 30 degree initial starting at 8,000 rpm = 64% Peak Torque RPM (Peak Torque RPM = 12,517)

Timing at Peak Torque 12,517rpm = 16 degrees

Timing at Peak HP 13,000rpm = 14 degrees

Timing at Peak OverRev 14,000rpm = 9 degrees


....just for a reference example of a highly optimized powervalve ignition curve.

[Flettner]

Reference Image of Aprilia RSA timing curve: https://ibb.co/VMkxZ0M

(Powervalve Engine)

Timing Pulled from the 30 degree initial starting at 8,000 rpm = 64% Peak Torque RPM (Peak Torque RPM = 12,517)

Timing at Peak Torque 12,517rpm = 16 degrees

Timing at Peak HP 13,000rpm = 14 degrees

Timing at Peak OverRev 14,000rpm = 9 degrees


....just for a reference example of a highly optimized powervalve ignition curve.

If I continue with this cylinder I will be fitting a form of ATAC bottle.

[wobbly]

See Neil , there you go again. " I'd like to see 12,000 " sure go right ahead and shorten the pipes - correct move.
But what the hell are the ports doing at that rpm?
I dont want you to be like Fauchi and blindly " follow the science" , as his bullshit was made up, but STA science isnt.

There is already a completely obvious mismatch between the pipe geometry , and the port timing, as there are a hundred other engines with single port/pipe combinations that work perfectly well
without a PV and they dont have a huge torque " hole" like that graph shows.
Now you are planning another ,completely unplanned move, off on a weird arse tangent - are you gonna get lost, my money is on Alex achieving 10Hp on petrol in another 5 years.

[Wos]

Let us see the good things Flettner did 😉

He did a first dyno run ever!!! 👍 congratulations!

Good starting in the new year, maybe going from now step by step 😉 continuing with only one thing till you failed or better gained something...

Detos near to 6500 you eleminated are not a Garantie engine producing optimum there...maybe advance ist still to much...

Not sure that 30 advance on bottom is necessary 🤔 ...and maybe it could be better to go with a steeper/earlier falling advance after peak power ...for example 😉

A lot test work for decades...

Have a good one 😉

Wolfgang

[Flettner]

See Neil , there you go again. " I'd like to see 12,000 " sure go right ahead and shorten the pipes - correct move.
But what the hell are the ports doing at that rpm?
I dont want you to be like Fauchi and blindly " follow the science" , as his bullshit was made up, but STA science isnt.

There is already a completely obvious mismatch between the pipe geometry , and the port timing, as there are a hundred other engines with single port/pipe combinations that work perfectly well
without a PV and they dont have a huge torque " hole" like that graph shows.
Now you are planning another ,completely unplanned move, off on a weird arse tangent - are you gonna get lost, my money is on Alex achieving 10Hp on petrol in another 5 years.

Thanks for the encouragement . Perhaps Ill re post if I accidently luck on something significant, apologies for posting my weird arse shit here.
I guess Ill have to invest in EngMod or borrow the use of someone's copy as this next 54 x 54 cylinder is on the pattern table now and I don't want to fuck that one up.

[ApolloMotoMoto]

I guess Ill have to invest in EngMod or borrow the use of someone's copy

The JanBros 2.0 Excel Spreadsheet for Calculating Port STA is 100% free and 100% accurate for calulating port STA and the resulting peak torque RPM that STA will support.

You dont have -ANY- need for EngMod until you are trying to do power predictions for proposed changes, or you are actually interested in designing a real pipe.

If your ports peak torque RPM doesnt currently match the pipes peak resonance RPM, thats a problem you can solve FOR FREE with JanBros.

If your blowdown STA's peak torque RPM current doesnt match your Transfer STA's peak torque RPM, that is also a problem that you can solve FOR FREE with JanBros.

I honestly dont even know how you are choosing how large to make the transfer ports, or what timing to set them at without doing the calculations.

130 degrees of transfer timing is a LOT of transfer timing, and with 195 degrees of exhaust timing with your dual port (T port) exhaust, you really SHOULDN'T need 130 degrees of transfer timing to balance the blowdown you are pushing.

Not unless you have incredibly small transfer ports leaving a lot of cylinder bore on the table between the transfer ports....?

Excessive Transfer timing in a portmap will 100% make the 2/3 torque hole worse.

Enter your portmap into the JanBros Spreadsheet and it will become pretty clear what needs to happen.


You really dont need to appologize, Wobbly's just a cantancerous old fart.

And, to be fair, he already told you exactly what you ought to do.

This isnt the first time the FREE JanBros Spreadsheet has been recommended to you for STA calculations.


:wink:

[Flettner]

The JanBros 2.0 Excel Spreadsheet for Calculating Port STA is 100% free and 100% accurate for calulating port STA and the resulting peak torque RPM that STA will support.

You dont have -ANY- need for EngMod until you are trying to do power predictions for proposed changes, or you are actually interested in designing a real pipe.

If your ports peak torque RPM doesnt currently match the pipes peak resonance RPM, thats a problem you can solve FOR FREE with JanBros.

If your blowdown STA's peak torque RPM current doesnt match your Transfer STA's peak torque RPM, that is also a problem that you can solve FOR FREE with JanBros.

I honestly dont even know how you are choosing how large to make the transfer ports, or what timing to set them at without doing the calculations.

130 degrees of transfer timing is a LOT of transfer timing, and with 195 degrees of exhaust timing with your dual port (T port) exhaust, you really SHOULDN'T need 130 degrees of transfer timing to balance the blowdown you are pushing.

Not unless you have incredibly small transfer ports leaving a lot of cylinder bore on the table between the transfer ports....?

Excessive Transfer timing in a portmap will 100% make the 2/3 torque hole worse.

Enter your portmap into the JanBros Spreadsheet and it will become pretty clear what needs to happen.


You really dont need to appologize, Wobbly's just a cantancerous old fart.

And, to be fair, he already told you exactly what you ought to do.

This isnt the first time the FREE JanBros Spreadsheet has been recommended to you for STA calculations.


:wink:

Im a cantankerous old fart too. Last time I tried to use the free spread sheet I kept getting a blank page. Im sick of fighting with computers, so I abandoned the idea.
Perhaps, Ill try again when Im in a better frame of mind. Thankyou for your input

[ApolloMotoMoto]

Im a cantankerous old fart too. Last time I tried to use the free spread sheet I kept getting a blank page. Im sick of fighting with computers, so I abandoned the idea.
Perhaps, Ill try again when Im in a better frame of mind. Thankyou for your input

I will say, if you have ZERO experience using Microsoft Excel, then there will be a bit of a learning curve.

If you have any friends who work in finance, or perhaps even a wife with excel experience; having someone who is an excel pro stand over your shoulder to get you up and running would be a huge benefit.

I had started with zero excel experience, and it took a bit of googling to get me sorted.

Once you get through the initial learning curve, everything in the JanBros spreadsheet is 100% automated, you input your data in the data fields, and it does the rest.

[wobbly]

Absolutely NOT denigrating your work Neil, as what you are doing is valuable, genuine , R&D.
But as so often happens with the individuals who are actually very capable of doing this work, they get so tied up in the process that they flail about like a mad womans shit
from one tangent to another without paying attention to the very basic design detail.

You have a big issue with a port/pipe mismatch creating a huge torque hole, that is not going to go away , and a new PV is a bandaid "fix" , not actually addressing the base issue.
Shortening the pipes is NOT going to help this problem , if the ports are already wrong , and may never in fact be capable of supporting 12,000 rpm.

I am really , really pushing you to get on top of JanBros spreadsheet as the kind of info it will give you far outweighs the frustration you feel even trying to get it installed.
If you simply cant even download it , its available in many places , but executable programs are blocked by most email servers, maybe someone here has it on a cloud based storage medium
and can give you a link.

[Wos]

Flett...think you made progress last days in your ligue...before you told us max reves you saw were about 11500...now 12000...!? 😉 think...well done!!

Dont mind about the talking, the advices for other levels...as long as you do so much progress....you need no further digital calculators that promise you heaven 😉
Often the better way in our ligue is to keep it simple...

[ApolloMotoMoto]

Here is a JanBros 2.0 download link on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/download/6848931668551911/JanBros2-stroke2.0.xlsm?av=100011766914938&eav=AfYPETEEJ1p7nHXep1zP1IEQBi063VBDp-0-ZJWtQsq2tjDiZyDl9bEcCKte-Ic_EDI&paipv=0&hash=AcpJQXCMm2ou7Cb9pmU&__cft__[0]=AZVzRw28jPKLyZnr7owCKjHihqJEQiDUh5TL7haxGVCPsx9mp ywnkeYnpCEU8nJTnLAOYnL3DlXuARCJKfyD16XMXsJLoSorFrq ooBEG5s1XGe2RJwWb8n6HVd1BmVeNBh7dEUfsX9w8Gzc_ma3NY N2Tz5xJus14qxb4B04gbvpEhQ&__tn__=H-R



This is the most recent download link from JanBros (2.2) here on KiwiBiker (Dropbox link):

Excel File:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sc...=g69206c6&dl=0

Word File INSTRUCTIONS:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sc...=8dmk16js&dl=0