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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #6436
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    Working on the EI carb with the 24mm venturi behind the slide, its a bit of a trick getting the mixture right. Its easy to wind the needle up and down and have it either rich on top lean below or the other way around. But not having a good selection of needles, I am having to stone the flats on the two needles I have, to try and get a profile that fuels correctly.

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    A comparison of the OKO with the 24mm restriction in the bellmouth like Frits suggested (Red Line) and the EI carb with the venturi behind the slide idea (Blue Line).

    I am still working on tuning the EI carb and haven't completly given up on the venturi behind the slide idea yet but the 24mm venturi restriction in the bellmouth concept does look promising.

  2. #6437
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    Page 430 below are interesting quote snipits, the posts should be read in full.

    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Re smaller case volume, I have measured one of those engines and its case com is exactly 1.3 on one side and 1.29 on the other with around 540cc from memory..
    This is alot smaller than an Aprilia at 640cc.

    But its case vol is relatively large in comparison to 2T technology at the time.
    In a 125 project I have just finished, with a case reed, 1.3 gave the best result.
    Going down to around 1.24 of the RSA spec lost around 2Hp with the reeds, no matter what I did with intake length and petal stiffness, pipe geometry or carb size.
    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Yamahas basic technology took big strides forward after …. the factory finally getting off the high horse and admitting Honda was right all along with 54 square, and then they added back the superior spool valve that worked so well in the old RZ …
    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    In order to take full benefit of a large crankcase volume you need free-flowing transfer ducts. That means: large cross sections, short gas column lengths and large time.areas.

    Skinny exhaust pipes, high crankcase compression and narrow transfers with timings over 140° were common in the sixties.

    These factors were interdependent: the skinny pipes hardly produced any decent exhaust suction, so you needed the pumping action of the small crankcase volume. And because of the narrow transfer windows you needed long timings to get anywhere near workable time areas.

    The energy of a moving gas or mixture column depends on its mass and its velocity. In ducts with large cross sections the flow velocity does not rise too high because the crankcase pressure can drop fairly rapidly.

    In short, narrow ducts the velocity will rise all right, but the mass in the ducts will be small. And in long, narrow ducts the long plug of gas will resist acceleration and will only slowly come up to speed. Because long columns are such slow starters, the kinetic energy at the latter stage of transfer will only make up for what went missing at the initial stage.


    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Here is my first thought. The carb inlet length is still too long though, so you would have to try steeper exit divergence to shorten this up.
    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Try putting the venturi directly behind the slide like Lectron did - this will shorten up the divergent length with much slower angles out to the RV port area.
    Easy to test the flow capability of the varying venturi positions and divergent angles on a flow bench before hitting a dyno.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Yes, make it into a bellmouth. That will get you both a shorter unit and a better inflow. You might also consider putting the restriction in the bellmouth if your rules allow it. That would mean you can have a considerably longer trailing ramp (the widening can start right after the bellmouth, i.e. under the throttle slide). It also means that only the air, not the fuel, has to pass through the restriction. That way the total mass that has to be accelerated through the restriction, will be about 8 % less.
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    A dyno graph comparison of the OKO with the 24mm restriction in the bellmouth like Frits suggested (Red Line) and the EI carb with the venturi behind the slide idea (Blue Line).


    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    He made a reed set up that had large stuffers down each side of the block.
    The logic was that Yamaha's reed was way too big, loosing a heap of velocity as the flow exited the manifold.
    There are so many interesting posts with mag articles and pictures from husaburg that its worth trawling through his “View Forum Posts” list.

    The decade pages 420, 410, 400, 390 etc ….. have their own collections.

  3. #6438
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    That is exactly the issue everyone has had with Lectron and EI carbs.
    Get the mid spot on and the top will be rich, jet the top correct and the mid will be lean - no matter what needle is used.
    I have said for years that a solenoid powerjet ( or adding a proper air correction system) would fix everything, but that needs alot of work to set up, so has never been done.
    Its worth doing though, as the nice atomisation of the Lectron setup is worth having.
    Another route would be a powerjet with air correction, these are available - I will post a link here when I find it.
    Another possibility is the company that bought the patents from Edmonson - the guy who did Lectron and EI.
    These new carbs won everything at Pikes Peak where they ran.
    The 2T Quad had my pipes and was easily the fastest on the hill - listen for the screaming Banshee.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZneHu...1&user=motovox

    Here is the air corrected powerjet setup - I have a pair and will test these on the first F3 - 400 engine on the dyno

    http://www.thunderproducts.com/dial_a_jet.htm
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  4. #6439
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    That is exactly the issue everyone has had with Lectron and EI carbs.
    Get the mid spot on and the top will be rich, jet the top correct and the mid will be lean - no matter what needle is used.
    I have said for years that a solenoid powerjet ( or adding a proper air correction system) would fix everything, but that needs alot of work to set up, so has never been done.
    Its worth doing though, as the nice atomisation of the Lectron setup is worth having.
    Another route would be a powerjet with air correction, these are available - I will post a link here when I find it.
    Another possibility is the company that bought the patents from Edmonson - the guy who did Lectron and EI.
    These new carbs won everything at Pikes Peak where they ran.
    The 2T Quad had my pipes and was easily the fastest on the hill - listen for the screaming Banshee.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZneHu...1&user=motovox

    Here is the air corrected powerjet setup - I have a pair and will test these on the first F3 - 400 engine on the dyno

    http://www.thunderproducts.com/dial_a_jet.htm
    Here is some more stuff i sent TZ a while Back

    http://www.psipowerinc.com/mxAtvCarb.html
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    heres the other offshoot of the lectron lake etc
    http://revmasterautomotive.com/revmasteraviation/?p=221

    seen these talked about never a look though.
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    http://www.aeroconversions.com/produ...arb/index.html
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    Plus another
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    http://www.psicarbs.com/bigair.php

    http://www.saltmine.org.uk/dale/dale-faq.htm
    Eplanation here "
    The Lectrons have a central fuel outlet, that being the needle area. The needles controlled all fuel now with the exception of the power jet. One of the ideas was to eliminate the rich and lean spots in the fuel delivery curve as can happen with a multi-area delivery device such as a normal carb. The other was to make a system that was easy to adjust. Lectron succeeded brilliantly in one area, failed miserably in the other.

    Fuel control was with the needle. A taper was ground into the needle on the side that faces the intake area of the engine. Needles were graded and marked 5-3, 6-1, 6-2 etc. These numbers were easy to understand. The first number was the overall richness of the needle. A 5 series was leaner than a 6 series. The second number was the midrange richness. A -3 was richer than a -1. The very top end was controlled by the power jet exactly as we understand power jet function now.

    In order to have a "base" point that tuning could be initially set to, a distance was specified as standard, a datum. This was the length of the needle from the adjusting nut(what would be the needle clip in a Mikuni) and the tip of the needle that extends into what would be the needle jet in a Mik. The "needle jet" was not adjustable, much like the TMX style of Mik. The standard length was 1.945" or something like that. If the length was longer, the overall fuel was leaner as the taper would be lower and this would allow less fuel for any given throttle opening. The opposite was true if the needle length were shorter than 1.945". I think that if you had to go more than 2 turns in either direction, it was time to change the needle for a different fuel curve. This allowed for the fine adjustment of fuel.

    If one were to replace the screws holding the top of the Lectron with snap clips to allow quick removal of the top, a minor needle adjustment with power jet swap could be made in about 2 minutes for 2 carbs. This was one of the Lectrons strong points.

    If jetting was ok in the mid-range but off a bit just before power jet came on, you wouldn't want to adjust the needle as this would upset the balance with the mid-range. You would select a needle with a different second number - 1, -3 etc. THIS is where the Lectron failed. The quality control of the grinding of the needles was such that even though you had two needles marked the same, it didn't mean that you hade two needles that were the same. At first this caused all kinds of confusion as one would change the needles expecting a change in a known area and the engine wouldn't run anything like what was expected. Only after measuring the needles very accurately at absurdly small stations were we able to ferret out that Lectron needles were ground by the firm of "Byguess and Bygolly"!

    The only way to solve this problem was to carefully hone stone the needles and hope that the results gave you a pair of needles that could be used together, run them, grade them, and hope that one was fortunate enough to get a selection after a while. With all this tuning work done to the needles, it's not hard to see that if one had a good set, they didn't get loaned out at all(Hey! I need as set of 6-2's. Got any I could borrow for this race?) Might as well part with your right arm once your friend figures out your needles work better than his!

    On of the other strong points was that without a pilot circuit, the Lectrons could be run at absurd angles(35 deg) compaired to the Mik's. This allowed the carbs to be mounted to a straight manifold on the Super-street RD's for a more direct shot at the intake. If a Mikuni was mounted this way, it would flood horribly under hard braking as fuel poured out of the pilot circuit. This was not a problem with the central fuel point on the Lectron's.

    But time moves on and the quality control finally caught up to Lectron(and some other problem with finances or something). Carb technology advanced as well and we have very good, though expensive stuff now that needs computers to do all the thinking where us mortal humans did it before. This is progress...I think."


    http://www.ozlaverda.com/what-s-an-e...or-t15-10.html
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    I knew i had seen this somewhere explanation of the "cheater" Carb for controlled carb classes
    http://lectronfuelsystems.com/faqs.html#Tuning
    What is a Lectron High Velocity Carburetor?
    The standard Lectron carburetor has a 2mm taper. For example a 40mm carburetor will start out 40mm and taper down to 38mm at the fuel pick up then taper back up to 40mm. The Lectron High Velocity carburetor has a 4mm taper. For example, a 38mm HV carburetor will start at 40mm and taper down to 36mm at the fuel pickup then back out to a 38mm. This carburetor was first designed for racing classes that had a restriction on carburetors size. This was Lectron’s answer to have a small carburetor work like a big carburetor. The Lectron High Velocity carburetor is also used today for bikes that do not have much “port speed”. Engines with a small amount of port speed have trouble picking up fuel efficiently this carburetor corrects that. Final note, many people put Lectron High Velocity carburetors on engines not understanding why? Just because of the name “High Velocity” they think it is a better carburetor than the standard Lectron.
    Don’t confuse the issue.

    History of Reds Carbs from what i understand Red or his son was in business with one of Kenny Roberts sons. Wob would know for sure, but i think his son may have worked for KR.
    History Behind the AFT Carburetor

    Since the beginning of the combustion engine, man has had a natural desire to get as much power out of the wide variety of motors manufactured for work and play. For the past 37 years, William “Red” Edmonston has chosen the motorcycle as his passion for power and speed.

    Red started racing Triumph motorcycles in the 1940’s and after 13 years of racing and breaking bones, he decided to move to California and work with Triumph as a road manager as well as open a Honda dealership to provide for his young family. During the 1960’s, Red continually became frustrated with the fuel delivery systems for the motorcycle industry. Most of the carburetors being manufactured and sold on motorcycles were complex to tune, and required a constant effort to keep tuned for proper operation of the motor. This was primarily because of the multiple and overlapping circuits (different jets for the differing throttle positions) that caused the air fuel mixture to be very rich at different throttle positions. These early carburetors could not adapt for altitude changes either, which added to the constantly differing air-to-fuel ratios and tuning problems. Besides the frustrations that many had with keeping their motorcycles running at optimum, these crude fuel delivery systems also cause the motor to run very inefficiently and with significant harmful emissions.

    In the late 196o’s, after many years of racing, managing race teams, and selling motorcycles, Red began his long career of inventing, designing, and manufacturing carburetors for the motorcycle industry. In short, Red has had a significant impact on the motorcycle industry over the past 40 years. Red has held nearly 100 patents and has invented and manufactured nine different carburetors, each of which has shared some similarities while each subsequent model continually added improvements in functionality and performance. The history of the Red Edmonston’ carburetors spans many years and a great deal of experience and improvements:

    · 1968-1969: The Lake Injector prototype and final production model carburetor.
    · 1970-1971: The Pos-A-Fuel prototype and final production model carburetor.
    · 1971: The Pos-A-Fuel with remote float bowl production model carburetor.
    · 1973-1974: The Lectron prototype and final production model carburetor.
    · 1976-1977: The E.I. Prototype and final production model carburetor.
    · 1978: The Blue Magnum production model carburetor.
    · 1980: The Bank of Four Blue Magnum model carburetor.
    · 1981-1982: The Qwik Silver prototype and production model carburetor.
    · 1982: The Qwik Silver Bank of Four carburetor wins Daytona super-bike race.
    · 1993: The Qwik Silver II production model carburetor (sold to Edelbrock).

    Lastly i think Mike Sinclair was meant to be a gun out sorting out Lectrons i read somewhere. I guess possibly through the Roberts days connection exposure.

    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    This is why nobody likes you Dave.
    Speedpro i think you way be selling Dave a bit "short" i suspect there are numerous other reasons
    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Anyways, I'm not using any queer daigo carbs,
    I hear he has quite a following with both the Italian and Homosexual community.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  5. #6440
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    @ Husa

    Great info, thanks!!


    @ Wobbly

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  6. #6441
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    There it is, Wobblys name on the side of the Quad ......

  7. #6442
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    how about a pekar carb? for shortness at least.. not sure about the rest.. but at 23$..

  8. #6443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    ...the moped rules stated for example that the carburetter should not be larger than 20 mm.
    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    thats a pretty small carburettor, be hard to get a bore size of more than 8mm.
    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    This is why nobody likes you Dave.
    I do. At least Dave has proven he can read the way you should read a rulebook .

  9. #6444
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    I found this as well a while back but how often is a bucket at constant full throttle anyway.Bear in mind he is a Diesel pig guy and the motors he is referring too are used more commonly for "industrial uses"
    http://www.oldminibikes.com/forum/ho...i-carbs-2.html
    With the mikuni it works the same way. I also run Lectron carbs. They come standard in what ever size you want. I have had a 34mm regular model, then they have a HV model. The HV has a venturi in it. It starts off 36mm, then goes down to 32mm, then finish at the back at 34mm. This allows a rush in flow and no drop off on a instant full throttle.


    The flow test has been done about 10 years ago in jr dragster racing, and kart racing. The 28mm Mikuni that everyone know and loves was tested against a HL380 tillotson carb. The 28mm Mikuni is 28.5mm all the way through. The tillotson carb is 28.5mm at the back, but with a 1"/25.4mm venturi.

    At instant part throttle the mikuni flowed more air
    At instant full throttle the mikuni flowed more air
    At constant part throttle the tillotson flowed more air
    At constant full throttle the tillotson flowed more air

    The reasons why the test went this way is just like you said. The mikuni flows more unrestricted flow at instant throttle. But at constant throttle the venturi speeds up the flow. Something like going up hill entering the carb, then coming down hill into the bore.

    Now at the dyno session:
    The motor test was a 20+hp jr dragster flathead motor. The 28mm Mikuni carb worked very good at part throttle, and full throttle. The down falls of the carb is that the carb had to setup on a medium setting. Meaning that you was 100% sure if the carb was setup as best as can be. It was setup to only please the dyno guy. The carb didn't bog, hesitate, or sputter. So that's what matters when setting up a miknui multi jet carb. If you can crack the throttle and it doesn't bog, and revs up your basically satisfied with it as is, not knowing if it's as best as can be. Mainly because there isn't a way to tune for bottom end, and top end.

    Now with the HL380 tillotson carb it was setup to work 100% correct to the motor. Reasons why is because it has it's own separate jet/needle for the high and low. So it ran perfect on both bottom and top. Giving it more bottom end TQ, top end HP, and more RPM from having more air. Being able to tune on the fly is key to getting the most possible RPM/HP you can get.

    Now I use to run a 29.5mm Ibea carb back 3 years ago on my modified gx200 motor. The motor turned 10,300 RPM. At the time no one believed me because it was unheard of. The guys I was building half midget motors for have never got there motors to turn over 9,600 with 28mm Mikuni's. But the Deco 1/4 midget guys were turning over 12,000 RPM with Ibeas on them.

    Ibeas are just like the tillotson carb, but MOST of them DON'T have a venturi in the carb. But they are only used on full all out high RPM race motors.Usually 2 stroke kart motors.

    The 2 best carbs ever made are the Lectron, and the Ibea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  10. #6445
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    More out of interest than anything else I had a look for info on "Fish" Carbs.

    Kind of cool, used to be the hot setup for archaic turbo setups on Volkswagens.

    My Dad had an old one, It's pretty smart and works well!

    http://www.fireballroberts.com/Fish_Story.htm
    Heinz Varieties

  11. #6446
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    Spent all day on this carb and just couldn't get it right, maybe the 33mm throat at the slide is to big. Even when it ran well it was 1-2hp down all through the range compaired to the OKO setup.

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    So switched back to the OKO and found the lost ponies.

    I got my 24mm flatslide OKO carb $69 USD from here:- http://www.treatland.tv/OKO-s/84.htm

    The "RDR intake for small motor cycle 30mm" $15 USD has the right size rubber for the 22-30mm OKO's.

    Cable choke conversions are available $19 USD and Boxes of Main Jets, Needles or Pilots are $24 USD a box of 10.

    The Suppliers Treatland, http://www.treatland.tv/ are in San Francisco, delivery International $43 USD (to me in NZ anyway) 5-10 working days.

    A std OKO carb is bored straight through without any taper, so a 24 is 24 at the back right through to the front. OKO's are made from an alloy that does not crush easily when held in the lathe and the alloy machines very nicely unlike the usuall pot metal carb bodies of Keihin, Mikuni, Amal etc.

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    OKO's are great carbs to work with, I have had more success with them than any other carb and I have tried a few, big, small and every thing inbetween ....... the Treatland guys are a great bunch to deal with. http://www.treatland.tv/

    Being touted on the net are inferior pot metal Chinese knockoffs of the Taiwanese OKO, so it pays to check.

  12. #6447
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    The interesting thing is, that the signal strength was much greater and we had to reduce the main jet, we went from 140 down to 100 which is the smallest we could get, made 31rwhp with the 100mj, maybe there is more if we could get smaller jets.
    Your friends here at Treatland do them Rob
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    for use in the OKO carburetors. 10 pack small range jet box come with jets 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 102, 105, 110, 115 & 120.

    comes in a handy flip top clear plastic box

    "OKO - new yuppie fashion trend"



    I was surprised to find that it was in the USA because the site has some err....intersting turn of phrase.
    http://www.treatland.tv/OKO-main-jets-small-range-p/oko-10-pack-main-jets-small.htm


    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  13. #6448
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    Looking at any carb selection chart you can see why the Bucket rule makers thought a 24mm carb would limit a 125 2-strokes power output. They didn't expect the cleverness of Thomas the Vietnamese race mechanic or the workshop skills of Bucket .....

    I think that between us all on Team ESE we have put in about 5-6 of months work lately, or maybe longer and a lot of dyno time finding a good carb/inlet system configuration.

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    The OKO carb, is easy to hold in a lathe and machine.


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    The 24 measures 24mm in front of the slide and is easy to taper bore out to 30 or even modify with an insert in the bellmouth for extra width at the slide.

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    30mm is about as big as a 24mm OKO can be taper bored out to.

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    This is the EngMod2T model of my current inlet system. The 30mm max limit at the engine end of the carb sort of limits the angles possible.

    By having a bit of a steep divergent angle after the 24mm venturi maximises the throttle area.

    This carb has produced the best numbers on the dyno so far but has yet to be tried out on the track......

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    The fastest bike we have had on the track ran this 24mm OKO taper bored from just behind the slide out to 30mm at the manifold and that worked OK. One day we might get to try a back to back test on the dyno.

  14. #6449
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    I was surprised to find that it was in the USA because the site has some err....intersting turn of phrase.
    http://www.treatland.tv/OKO-main-jets-small-range-p/oko-10-pack-main-jets-small.htm
    Yes, interesting bunch of Guys, mostly into racing Mopeds and over the road is a motorcycle workshop that specialises in 70's and 80's Hondas, there was about 30 bikes parked out side, there were several CB77's and K1 350's and 750's, in fact I saw a lot of older bikes around San Fran including a couple of water buses when I was there late last year.

  15. #6450
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    1,017
    Is there any difference between the
    OKO K-102 24mm FLAT SLIDE POWER-JET RACE CARBURETTOR
    and
    NEW OKO 24mm FLAT SLIDE POWER-JET RACE CARBURETTOR

    both sold by the same supplier with a difference in cost of about $20
    It can't just be the float bowl as the 102 comes with either
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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