ESE's works engine tuner

[wobbly]

Before anyone gets all excited, remember that the pipe layout I did was for the single Ex port engine with very high duration needed to get the Blowdown correct.
That pipe wont work with the tripple port cylinder as the timings are way lower duration.

[dinamik2t]

Wob, now that you mentioned how pipes don't work with different specs..
Is there any way of doing reverse engineering to a pipe design, to acquire the few basic parameters it was built with?
Say, you have a full pipe design with lengths and angles. Eg, tuned length can point out ex duration-maxHP rpm combos?

By the way, I noticed that sometimes -for the particular example of ExDur-MaxHP rpm- even if I rise or lower the timing, max power rpm will stay the same, +-100 rpm. Obviously, not half a degree alterations, but from 190 to 198.
I guess those might be, deliberately made, 'desigh mistakes' in mass production tuned pipes, to accomodate possible tuning alterations?

[wobbly]

The less clever a pipe design is, its much harder to pin down what the designers intent was, and the less it will be "port specific ".
But with say the 125 Bucket pipe, it was designed right from the get go to run with a 78* Ex port, and will only work correctly with the proper area step at the flange etc as it has
a two stage header and all manner of trickery to try and maintain the spread as well as create good peak numbers.

But there are all sorts of generalities that work, like 200* with 950 will peak at around 10500 with anything from a TZ350 to a Banshee Cheetah.
The RS125 with 196 and 830 will peak around 12000,then the A Kit with 200 and 800 will peak around 12500 but rev hard to 14,000.
But one thing that is a real fly in the ointment is the ignition - the peak prm point and the overev capability of a port timing/pipe length combination is hugely influenced by the timing - and how much of the available heat
energy in the fuel is dumped into the pipe, or the head/piston/water.
Best example is the Italian 125 ICC engines with fixed timing around 14*, these need a pipe some 40mm shorter than the A kit Honda to get revs near 14,000 with identical Ex timing.
The Honda has a digital ignition with a ton of retard and a solenoid powerjet, the ICC has none of this so needs a completely different approach - no free lunch.

[husaberg]

Like i said missing some installments there should be one or 2 where he gets the cases ready for casting then this lot of two.

[TZ350]

Dan's take on Cylinders and Pistons http://www.dansmc.com/pistons.htm



Dykes Ring

A very good read about piston rings:- http://americanmusclecarsaustralia.c...d.php?tid=2627

[husaberg]

I was looking at a picture of a NSR and had a thought it looks real large on the ignition side to accommodate the electric start.



So how much more power would it develop with disk valve induction instead of Crankcase reed ho much more is in it if it were say 35 with the reeds.
it would be interesting to have a 6 speed liquid cooled power valved Honda. kind of like this one.



Yes it would be good to pull me finger out me bum and stop procrastinating but just wondering.
Those aprillia's seemed to go ok

[2T Institute]

Husa interesting engine that disc Honda where is that from?

[Frits Overmars]

I was looking at a picture of a NSR....

I suspect this cylinder and head were never meant to be fitted to that engine. Where did you find them? Some 250 cc V-twin?
The head could do with an additional bleed connection. As it is, most of the head and even a part of the cylinder are air bubble cooled...

[husaberg]

Husa interesting engine that disc Honda where is that from?

http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html
look for the pic with the man with spanners in the menu.
Roffe built it amongst others must be long long winters in Sweden.
http://50iniepoca.forumfree.it/?t=43987929&st=75


Cause have a look at this as well (already posted for those with longer memories)
http://forum.scooterforum.net/forum/...roject-153286/

I suspect this cylinder and head were never meant to be fitted to that engine. Where did you find them? Some 250 cc V-twin?
The head could do with an additional bleed connection. As it is, most of the head and even a part of the cylinder are air bubble cooled...

Yes it is the front cylinder off a NSR250 as the 250 on the cylinder is also a bit of a giveaway as well.
the front cylinders are not coveted as they have the angled plug. The std backyard and HRC mod is to replace them with another rear one and a shorty plug.
Wob sat her on as i guess he had one lying about he has some mods planed for her but i suppose the engine has to be mounted in situ first.

I must admit I thought you may have a go an giving a technical explanation of the outputs Reed Vs Disk Frits above er... and below?

I was looking at a picture of a NSR and had a thought it looks real large on the ignition side to accommodate the electric start.
So how much more power would it develop with disk valve induction instead of Crankcase reed ho much more is in it if it were say 35 with the reeds.
it would be interesting to have a 6 speed liquid cooled power valved Honda. kind of like this one.

added some lionheart as well, as i said previously i am missing a few, plus a few remain lost in Husaberg Manor maybe i will have a proper look sometime.
One has a beautiful 955 Ducati. Is it wrong to covert one , Possibly, but i do anyway.

[Frits Overmars]

... I thought you may have a go at giving a technical explanation of the outputs Reed Vs Disk Frits above er... and below?

A technical explanation? Nah, too much to do today. But since you were kind enough to post that picture of your sex six sisters, I will show some curves of my own.
When Jan Thiel went to Derbi to design the bike we now know as the Aprilia RSA125, he encountered the 125 cc reed valve Derbi ridden by Lorenzo the previous season. Jan played around with the reed valver as well, because he wanted to find out the differences between reed valve and disk valve power. He managed to extract 2 HP more from the reed valver than anyone else had ever done before (never mind the fairy tales of reed valve 125s producing over 50 HP; those Horses must have been Shetland ponies, probably measured at the piston ring).
My graph shows the power curve for the Aprilia RSA, the Aprilia RSW and that best-ever reed valve Derbi. It's not quite in the same league as the rotaries, hmm?

EDIT: Shame on me; I discovered that I posted a wrong graph (and I do not have the correct one at hand here in Holland). Power curve DERBILOR shows the reed valve Derbi as Lorenzo rode it. After Jan finished playing with it, it had 49 HP. Still, the best-ever disk valver produced 10 % more power than the best-ever reed valver.

[husaberg]

A technical explanation? Nah, too much to do today. But since you were kind enough to post that picture of your sex six sisters, I will show some curves of my own.
When Jan Thiel went to Derbi to design the bike we now know as the Aprilia RSA125, he encountered the 125 cc reed valve Derbi ridden by Lorenzo the previous season. Jan played around with the reed valver as well, because he wanted to find out the differences between reed valve and disk valve power. He managed to extract 2 HP more from the reed valver than anyone else had ever done (never mind the fairy tales of reed valve 125s producing over 50 HP; those Horses must have been Shetland ponies, probably meassured at the piston ring).
My graph shows the power curve for the Aprilia RSA, the Aprilia RSW and that best-ever reed valve Derbi. It's not quite in the same league as the rotaries, hmm?

Thanks for that Frits i kind of thought maybe 2 or so but bugger. Wow that is quite significant, far greater difference than i would have expected.
(I am assuming the cylinders were similarly spec'ed though?)
mmmmm.... nice to know if Vanessa were say, to make 35hp there could be another 3 or so HP to be gained by using a side sucker. Also one cunning advantage is my home circuit is, all bar one corner, exclusively right handers. So if it were to be placed on the ignition side i would be far more likely to wipe out the er.....water pump than the carb. On my inevitable re-acquaintance with the moss bales Oh how they must have missed me. For i rarely missed them.

Don't Team ESE have a RG150 engine and a RGV250 cylinder in the parts bin. I see they like disk valves.
So I wonder .......if they were to combine all those bits and build a H20 6 speed disk valve 100 cc engine using 90's design rather than a 70's design engine.

[TZ350]

Shit itself on the dyno last night, we think the problem is the exhaust port hammering the piston and trapping the ring. Just got it back together, dynoed up ok , packing now and off to Kaitoke be there about 7-8 ish tonight. See you all Sat sign in. ... TeeZee & Kel

Away 10-45am .....

[speedpro]

Yes it would be good to pull me finger out me bum and stop procrastinating but just wondering.
Those aprillia's seemed to go ok

The rear half of those cases looks like an MB100, I'm not kidding. Will post photos later. There is even the little block for the engine number and the hole for the neutral switch.

[husaberg]

The rear half of those cases looks like an MB100, I'm not kidding. Will post photos later. There is even the little block for the engine number and the hole for the neutral switch.

Er... the cases could look a lot like a Honda mb100 because they are a Honda MB50 well they could be mbx or NS50,nsr50 but pretty sure mb5

Jeebus! that is pretty flash looking stuff!EDIT: So that MB50 cases yeah?

Did you follow the link to the Roffe follow picture of man with tools on the navigation home site man witit looks like he offers it as a kit for the mb5. The building of this particular motor is in another thread i will have a look in my favorites/or bookmarks.
But it was i think in the racing 50's site. here you have to log on to see the pics

Well...For those who wish for some work shop porno...http://www.british50ccracing.com/for...&sd=a&start=45

My project at the moment is to tune a Honda MB 50 6 Speed engine.
Components like:
Honda MB casing with rotary inlet Alá VRM
Minarelli AM 6 Crank
Main bearing L-20 on both side.
Derbi special tuned barrel
Thyron Ignition.
Stroke 39mm
Bore 40mm
Changeable combustionchamber.
Mikuni TMX 27mm Carb.
VRM Exhaust

Hello everyone you on this side!http://mt5.se/bilder/5719-slidmatad-...ran-roffe.html
I intend to write a short description on what you see, so that it does not become mass
awkward expectations and misunderstandings.
It has also expressed wishes about may to see more pictures so I will fix it ahead.
This engine is built on order of a customer that will go fastly straightly forward and we come probably
may to read if it farther forward this summer would I faith.
It is not at me farther so can thus it not become filmtajm from me in all cases.; =)
MVH
Roffe@VRM



The engine is one old Honda MB that I have rebuilt in order to among other things contain one Minarellivev instead.
What one must do is to rebuild lager situations and location of packboxen on right
since the cranks are little individual.
Moreover, one must produce a new small primary drive so drivningen works.

The sets put one up the block in an angle shelf stem to change pinnbultsmönstret and
do the possible to center the cylinder correct against the crank arbor.
Here, you come little pictures on such job so see how it will be done!.


The first picture shows: after to have drilled up orginalhålen for pinnbultarna so gängar I in
aluminum bar stem to do the possible to get another bolt standard.
In this fallen for Derbicyllen that has 56 x 56 mm.

Fräsning centrering arborrning and correct location is rottenly precise.

Is that Roffe that Swede of MB50 disk valve Derbi cylinder fame?
http://translate.google.co.nz/transl...26prmd%3Dimvns
Attachment 249742Attachment 249743Attachment 249744

F5 Anyone
This left me speechlessIt is a Honda 50 converted to Rotary valve and a LC Derbi top end and Minerili crank.Whats the go with these bearings?
http://translate.google.co.nz/transl...26prmd%3Dimvns
Go to the bit with the face and the thumbs up.

Yes they looked a little like the bearings Suzuki use in some steering heads But What is the advantage as a main over a std Bearing, less Fiction?
I couldn't figure out the magnetic bit So its (Magneto Bearing) I guess that Google translate got a bit lost in Translation from Swedish.
Had you heard of this Guy Wob?
Your Right there is some neat stuff and info there.He obviously makes great use of his long winters.The MB disk Valve seems available as a kit too. Here is a forum he is on. Best of all he seems to speak English too, by the look of it.
http://50iniepoca.forumfree.it/?t=43987929&st=75

Mike he does a lot of MB stuff like a kokusan ignition just like the real racers, lots of inlets carb kits reeds etc electric pumps etc etc ....
So now Frits.
Does that mean i am no longer the thread Goldfish?Oh bugger i can't throw stones from this glasshouse/bowl. Oh well i will go back to the corner of my bowl then
bugger where is the corner. oh well if i keep swimming around it will be here somewhere. Oh what were we talking about again?

[Frits Overmars]

Something to think about while the rest of the family occupy themselves with buying, boiling, painting, hiding, searching, finding and eating easter eggs: a couple of recent videos from the Dutch 50 cc scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvV4x...feature=relmfu
http://youtu.be/0odVzSgufjk