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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #7216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post

    When the exhaust port opens, a pressure pulse starts moving through the exhaust pipe...
    Thanks for the excellent post Frits, very informative... 5 min question = 2 hour reply = 1 week of me being away with the fairies as i process this further... my wife will love it



    Engmod2T issue...

    It looks as though in this case the issue was caused by the fact that the piston cutout is wider than the bottom of the port but narrower than top of the port on this particular cylidner reed setup. The software could handle a scenario where the cutout is either wider or narrower over the entire port, but not both... Neels has sent though an update to try and so far it seems to be working fine. Once again Neels' quick service and problem solving has been exceptional!!

  2. #7217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    The short answer is yes. But why is it that each time you people sit down for five minutes to write a question, I have to sit down for two hours to write an answer?

    When the exhaust port opens, a pressure pulse starts moving through the exhaust pipe. It is reflected at the end cone and it should be back at the cylinder just before the exhaust port closes.
    Next a part of this reflected pulse bounces off the partly-closed exhaust port and a residual pulse starts moving down the exhaust pipe. This residual pulse too is reflected by the end cone and starts moving back to the cylinder. Ideally it will arrive at the exhaust port just when the port opens again. Then the cylinder pressure and the pressure of the residual pulse combine their energy and the resulting pulse will be stronger than the pulse from the previous cycle. And the combined pulse from the next cycle will be stronger still, and so on; we have achieved true resonance.

    Some may argue that we want a low pressure in the exhaust pipe when the port opens because then the spent gases will experience less resistance while leaving the cylinder. But that is not true. Gas flow depends on a pressure difference ratio. But once that ratio reaches 2, the flow velocity will reach Mach 1, the speed of sound. Raising the pressure difference any further will not raise the flow velocity any further.
    The cylinder pressure at exhaust opening can be as high as 7 bar and the pressure of the reflected pulse will be about 2 bar. Thus the pressure ratio is well above 2, so lowering the pressure in the exhaust duct outside the cylinder will not do any good to the flow.

    What has the exhaust timing got to do with the 'true resonance' I mentioned above?
    The initial pulse starts moving at Exhaust Opening and it has to be back at Exhaust Closing, or a little earlier. This pulse travels with the speed of sound and its journey up and down the exhaust pipe will take t seconds.
    The residual pulse starts moving at Exhaust Closing and it has to be back at the next Exhaust Opening. This pulse also travels with the speed of sound and its journey up and down the exhaust pipe will also take t seconds.
    So from EO to EC takes t seconds and from EC to EO also takes t seconds. In English: the exhaust port should be open just as long as it should be closed.
    Assuming that the crankshaft rotates with a uniform speed, this means that the crank angle during which the exhaust is open must be equal to the crank angle during which the port is closed. So both angles must be 180°.

    I developed this line of thought some 40 years ago, but when I first published it in 1978 (in the motorcycle magazine Moto73 of which I was the technical editor) everybody called me crazy. Some people still do, but I got used to it .

    Above I made a couple of assumptions. The crankshaft does not rotate with a uniform speed, but at high revs the deviation is negligible. In case you really want to know, I did the math for the Aprilia RSA125. At a nominal rpm of 13,000 the minimum rotation speed is 12970 rpm @ 107° after TDC and the maximum value is 13031 rpm @ 356° aTDC. What's more significant: the deviation in crankshaft position from truly uniform rotation is always less than 1°. So that really is negligible.

    Second assumption: both the initial pulse and the residual pulse move with the speed of sound. Not true: the pulse pressures in exhaust waves are so high that acoustics rules do not apply any more. We are dealing with gas dynamics here and the stronger a pulse, the faster it moves. Since the residual pulse is weaker than the initial pulse, they move at different speeds. But we will leave this aside for now.

    Third assumption: the initial pulse starts moving as soon as the exhaust port starts opening. More or less true, but we are not interested in the first weak appearance of the pulse; we want to know when the pulse reaches its maximum amplitude. And that requires a certain amount of open exhaust port area. It turns out that for our desired theoretical exhaust timing of 180° we will need a geometrical exhaust timing of about 190°, depending on the shape of the port: does it open gradually or does it open over its full width all at once.

    The obvious question will be: why has the Aprilia RSA125 a geometrical exhaust timing of about 200°? True, at 190° the maximum torque value would be higher, but the engine would not want to rev because the blowdown time.area would be too small.
    The 200° are a compromise: a bit less torque and a bit more revs; as long as the torque decline is smaller than the rpm rise, we gain horsepower.

    I was trying to remember where you had mentioned this before so i had a look.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    I've got it, and some more papers from 'Prof Bob' as he was called in the GP-team. Robert Fleck too used a simple total-loss direct injection system.
    Alas, these papers are at my home and I am not, and I won't be for some time.
    Translating it back into English would mean removing the Spanish(!) voice that's talking through the original comment. I have enough Spanish, and some English as well, but this two-tongue Spanglish makes it hard to decipher. Anyway, it says there is water injected into the pipes; nothing new.
    Not quite. Adjusting pipe or header lengths would require more mechanics and a large battery to drive the servo; Dutch double sidecar-world champ Egbert Streuer tried sliding end cones in his four pipes. As it turned out, over the entire GP-season there was only one corner (the hairpin at La source, Franchorcamps, Belgium) where it was a real advantage, so he dumped the whole package.

    Exhaust power valves, if they're really good, shorten the exhaust timing, which costs torque because for true resonance you need an effective exhaust opening (and closing) period of 180 crank degrees.
    Everyday exhaust power valves spoil the primary exhaust pulse, resulting in a weaker return pulse that won't do much harm, but not much good either.
    Atac chambers lower the resonance frequency of the exhaust system, but a great deal of the return pulse energy is wasted in raising the pressure in the Atac chamber instead of the pressure in the cylinder.
    The best way out of all of this would be a continuously variable transmission and I would have developed one a long time ago if only it had been allowed in GP racing...
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Saving that for pulling the slippery pipe.

    Frits Overmars

    A powervalve does not really give you real resonance power; it just prevents the pipe pulses from completely messing up the power curve at low revs. I expect a sliding pipe will make more low-down power.

    http://www.pit-lane.biz/t1666p15-tec...ht=twin+rotary
    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post

    Yamahas spool valve would seem to be the best system for a single or 3 port setup.
    It is always close to the piston, no matter what leading edge height it has, and can also control the secondarys at the same time.
    Aprilias multi section blade is a good patch up of a flawed design, but it doesnt control the secondarys - maybe not such a big issue in a full noise application.

    For the T port, Hondas dropping gate works very well.Its design in the RS250 cylinder is much better than the ones Husaberg showed in that the pivot point is alot further
    away from the piston.Thus the arc away from the piston is alot slower.
    Suzukis twin multi section tubular valves are complex but clever as well, and like Hondas gate they conform well to the port roof when open.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post

    The power valve starts opening at 10,000 rpm and it is fully open at 12,000 rpm. It can keep up with acceleration in any gear. And when you blip the throttle in neutral, the power valve servomotor moves almost as quickly as the revcounter needle.
    The attachments below are some of the stuff off the thread i pulled together in an order of kind of each subject they all of course interrelate but there is a lot of ways to skin the proverbial cat, assuming curiosity hasn't got the better of him yet.

    I also seen this i had seen it before TZ had posted it years back but look how it is sealed.

    http://www.bukupower.com/videoPop.html

    http://www.zerorc.com/review-buku-se...exhaust-system

    http://www.twf8.ws/new/tech/options/...e/buku-21.html

    Attached Files Attached Files



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  3. #7218
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Now your average GP top ten finishing FXR or CBR 150 is 20-21 hp plus, and a really hot 150 25-27 hp

    I don’t think people have realised how far the front running 4-Strokes have come in real terms and what is required from a 2-Stroke to compete with them.

    18-22 hp from a 2-Stroke used to be enough, now it looks like 28-32 is required.
    I felt quite depressed when I realised what 2-Strokes now have to do, to compete with the current crop of 4-Stroke specials.

    And that at 31 hp, my engine with the big 75% exhaust port had started to become un-reliable.

    But after playing with EngMod2T again for a bit and with the exhaust port width reduced to a sensible 40mm (70%) and a few other tweeks with the Trombone pipe I find I can pretty much make the same power as before.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And it looks like a useful 5.5k power spread from 9-14.5K, with a 30+ hp peak and a virtually flat 2.5k spread across the top is on the cards using a Trombone pipe. If I can do it, lets see a 4-Smoker beat that.

  4. #7219
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    l think you only need 23-24 hp to win with a 2 stroke . after riding my bike for the first time lts slow l know the gearing was up the shit. l'm shore my old 2 valve 125 is qicker
    but put a fast rider onto most bikes and they will look fast

  5. #7220
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    25th March 2004 - 17:22
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    Depending on the dyno, but remember my bike only touches 24 (actually with some generous rounding) but it was competitive at Taupo & Young Dip only had that much & almost walked away.

    30hp isn't required. . .until you have it & don't want to go back.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  6. #7221
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post

    30hp isn't required. . .until you have it & don't want to go back.
    Or Unless you and bike weigh 198kg. But hey if its there then go get it. 30 is massive power for this class really.

  7. #7222
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    Quote Originally Posted by richban View Post
    Or Unless you and bike weigh 198kg. But hey if its there then go get it. 30 is massive power for this class really.
    You got your FXR down to 48 kg??
    Sometimes you wish it was easier, but if it was, everyone else would do it, then you remember you don't want to be like everybody else!

  8. #7223
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    Oh Rich, I wouldn't say you were anything over 120, don't beat yourself up. Your bike can't be 198 either surely?
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  9. #7224
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Your bike can't be 198 either surely?
    It might be with the scatter shield he should fit

  10. #7225
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy man View Post
    l think you only need 23-24 hp to win with a 2 stroke .
    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    ... remember my bike only touches 24 (actually with some generous rounding) but it was competitive at Taupo & Young Dip only had that much & almost walked away.

    30hp isn't required. . .until you have it & don't want to go back.
    Maybe your right, the bike that won was 20-21hp, F5 did qualify fastest with 24hp, and Young Dip after a bit of a tussel was slowly opening a lead with his 24hp 2-Stroke.

    Sounds good until you realise that the race times were faster than qualifying, Nathaniel crashed over riding, and Andrew A started off the back of the grid and nearly peddled his FXR through to first place, his 4-Stroke is probably a little more than 21 hp. Any bets where Andrew would have finished if he had ridden in qualifying and had a place on the first row?

    Maybe 30 isn’t required from a 2-Stroke that wants to dominate the next GP but I wouldn't hang my hat on it and I do think a broader spread of power than we have now would be very useful too ……

    The question for the next GP is, how are you going to beat an extreamly fast rider at the top of their game with a puka GP race chasis and a few hp, well trying to ride harder probably won't work.

  11. #7226
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Maybe your right, the bike that won was 20-21hp, F5 did qualify fastest with 24hp, and Young Dip after a bit of a tussel was slowly opening a lead with his 24hp 2-Stroke.

    Sounds good until you realise that the race times were faster than qualifying, Nathaniel crashed over riding, and Andrew A started off the back of the grid and nearly peddled his FXR through to first place, his 4-Stroke is probably a little more than 21 hp. Any bets where Andrew would have finished if he had ridden in qualifying and had a place on the first row?

    Maybe 30 isn’t required from a 2-Stroke that wants to dominate the next GP but I wouldn't hang my hat on it and I do think a broader spread of power than we have now would be very useful too ……

    The question for the next GP is, how are you going to beat an extreamly fast rider at the top of their game with a puka GP race chasis and a few hp, well trying to ride harder probably won't work.
    Is the next GP on the full track at Ruapuna? 30 hp would be an asset
    My neighbours diary says I have boundary issues

  12. #7227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yow Ling View Post
    Is the next GP on the full track at Ruapuna? 30 hp would be an asset
    You would think so but.
    No matter how much Hp you have.
    No matter how sweet handling the bike is.
    No mater how extraordinary light the bike is.
    No matter how in form and talented the rider is.
    But In order to be able to finish first. First you must actually .......

    So what about some GP bike style air scoops ahead to the axle where they will work. I bet they would have liked gone even further but were not allowed to probably from the rule that banned Dustbin fairings in the 50's.with a set of these To direct cooling air over the cylinder. Thermal limits Cooling Cooling Cooling.
    I would go bigger scale than the NSR500 pic though




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  13. #7228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yow Ling View Post
    Would be good if we could dream up a way to use these old RZ 250 barrels in buckets 54x54 pv watercooled , reed valve, one of them has a factory boysen port

    Attachment 262021
    Kind of ot but could you share a pic of that one? Never seen or heard of a factory rz barrel with boyesen ports? (nice collection of barrels you got btw )

  14. #7229
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    Quote Originally Posted by ief View Post
    Kind of ot but could you share a pic of that one? Never seen or heard of a factory rz barrel with boyesen ports? (nice collection of barrels you got btw )
    Ill have a look for it tonight, it is a bit of an odd one as it only has one boysen port not a pair as usual
    My neighbours diary says I have boundary issues

  15. #7230
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    It might be with the scatter shield he should fit



    Walked in to that one.


    BOB anyone. Not that would be a test of reliability. 55mins of full throttle action. Just planting the seed. I am going for sure.

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