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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #811
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    Well the dyno didn’t lie, the bike fair zipped along. But now I am living proof that having more Hp does not translate into more racing success. A big thankyou to the Welly’s for having us Auckers down to play, it was a great show and the best people you could wish to spend time with. It was great to catch up with riders I met at Taupo last year and I am looking forward to seeing them again this year.

    Many thanks to Sully60 for taking the time to ride my bike and give me some pointers on improving its handling. I will follow his suggestions for Mt Wellington next weekend. It runs wide in the corners. Looking at the photos I can see my front wheel is turned out of the corner as if the bike is sliding when other bikes in the pic are turned into the corner.

    Awesome day, awesome people, awesome track and an awesomely zippy bike, I am looking forward to Taupo where the copper kettle can realy stretch its leggs.

  2. #812
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    Well good on ya & Pumba for making the trip. It is usually me traveling to the other side of the island to race Mt Wgtn. Please spread the word about the track. Kaitoke 2nd best Bucket track in NZ (after Blenheim I reckon).
    I've been told. Dreaming`s free.
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  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Well good on ya & Pumba for making the trip. It is usually me traveling to the other side of the island to race Mt Wgtn. Please spread the word about the track. Kaitoke 2nd best Bucket track in NZ (after Blenheim I reckon).
    and the green gl145 powered nsr (cant remember your name sorry)
    "Instructions are just the manufacturers opinion on how to install it" Tim Taylor of "Tool Time"
    “Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know.” - Cullen Hightower

  4. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckets4Me View Post
    and the green gl145 powered nsr (cant remember your name sorry)
    "Mark" has the very good looking green bike. He won some B grade races and was then bumped up to A grade.

    .

  5. #815
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    8th August 2007 - 19:12
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    Big respect for making the trip down to TZ and the rest of the Auckland crew.
    It was great to meet you guys.

    The GP # 14 is a serious piece of kit alright, I was quite taken a back when I left the pits, got it up on the pipe and it wheelied in second and third gear, with the choke still on, ahem

    I did find the power delivery quite peaky, bearing in mind my bike has the flattest power delivery of any non FXR bike out there it was quite a struggle at first.

    Once I got used to where the power was I started to enjoy it, the last bike I rode that I could wheelie out of the last left before the pit entrance was a Husky NOX so that tells me a few things.

    Like we discussed after my session I think you need more preload on the rear and dial in some more dampening to deal with it, I'd try that first. Apart from the wheelies, the tendancy to not track a good line through the faster corners was quite a handicap, especially at Kaitoke where you need to carry momentum through that corner to make the most of all that lovely power up the hill. Maybe then if you think it could be better drop the forks though, I'd be a little reluctant to do that because the handling in the slower turns was really good, I found the bike worked really well in that regard coming down the hill when I wasn't trying to use all the power and just 'connecting' the turns together, it was nimble and quite accurate, I'd be worried that if you lowered it too far at the front it may get a bit 'pushy' in the slower turns.

    I'm just thinking out loud a bit though, just try stuff out and see what works for you, though I would go as far as saying that you don't need to much more power, make the power you've got go in the direction you want the bike to go and you'll be disapearing in a sweet blue haze

  6. #816
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post
    I will take a picture of the exhaust on saturday (tomorrow is a holiday...yay!) and post that (just for fun)

    If you want some help with your exhaust, I am willing to lend a hand.

    Nice work on the new port timings.....not "cutting edge", but not far off!.........
    SS90 the bike ran well but suffered from the old school porting/narrow powerband. I would appreciate some help with a pipe and porting especially ideas about how much the transfers could angle up as I have not got my head fully around the new way of doing it.

    Looking to broaden the powerband and make it more drivable.

    It looks like we will be able to take one or two of the other Team ESE GP125 bikes to a Dyno on Thursday that can (hopefully) give us printouts of torque/reves. Mine will miss out as it is in transit back from Welly.

    .

  7. #817
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Mine will miss out as it is in transit back from Welly.
    It stopped being in transit a while ago. You know were it is if you want it.

    For the record Qkkid was in my bed, not the other way round

    Quote Originally Posted by Yow Ling View Post
    Pumba is a wise man.

  8. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    "Mark" has the very good looking green bike. He won some B grade races and was then bumped up to A grade.

    .
    ...and he got awarded "Best Present Bucket" !!!

    Sheez, was watching Sully pushing the GP125 of TZ's around. Damn it could move !!!!!!!!!!


    "...you meet the weirdest people riding a Guzzi !!..."

  9. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pumba View Post
    It stopped being in transit a while ago. You know were it is if you want it.
    Thanks Pumba for shipping my bike and sharing your pit setup with us. It made it a great day, thanks.

    .

  10. #820
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    18th October 2007 - 08:20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    SS90 the bike ran well but suffered from the old school porting/narrow powerband. I would appreciate some help with a pipe and porting especially ideas about how much the transfers could angle up as I have not got my head fully around the new way of doing it.

    Looking to broaden the powerband and make it more drivable.

    It looks like we will be able to take one or two of the other Team ESE GP125 bikes to a Dyno on Thursday that can (hopefully) give us printouts of torque/reves. Mine will miss out as it is in transit back from Welly.

    .
    Sure, no problems,
    I have attached a few pictures of the engine and exhaust I am doing at the moment.

    As I said it's Polini 133cc's, cast iron cylinder, with port timings closer to where I believe you would end up to get a nice torquey bike.
    The port layout is also very similar to yours (with the rear boost port/transfer layout, although, not so "crowded")

    I will post all timings when I finish the project, as it is only just the beginning.

    I modified an existing exhaust system (see pics) to closer (not perfectly) match the one you have.

    The compression ratio etc will all change as I go, but I believe that it will be somewhere around 13.8:1, I also currently go against convention and do not use a "squish band" in my heads, and have not done for some time now.

    I used to get critisised for this alot here (not any more), but stand by my experience when I say that while there are power gains in a squish band head, rideability (particularly partial throttle when cornering, and wider longer power curves) are possible with out a squish band....

    I am also using an ignition system that I developed this winter (nothing special, It's just a "twist and go" ignition system modified to run on a small frame vespa, it just retards 8 DEG, (but original Vespa electronic ones ADVANCE 2 DEG, so you can see why I / we, went to the effort!

    Rather than just "throw some angles and a pipe design" at you, it would be better to try and see if I am able to assist by finding some ideas that are applicable to your specific criteria (little carb etc)

    I do believe I already have a pipe that would be what you are looking for, but I want to be sure first, and starting with this pipe (which is close to yours) would be a more scientific way (I think)

    I added this to youtube today
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DtPFWtrPJY

    I will have it all ready tomorrow, but the customer is waiting to get his scooter from the painters next week, so I will have to wait till then to get it on the Dyno

    Just as a thought (if you manage to get the bikes to a dyno that can read torque vs RPM, then you will know what you have now, but from your exhaust timings, I would suggest your torque is quite low, perhaps even 13 NM )

    I could be wrong on that one though!

    I believe that you could (with better exhaust and porting) get a really rideable bike with, say (just for a number) 18 PS, and 16 NM, with a VERY long power band.

    It sounds like you are already making good power (after the dyno) and what sully60 said reaffirms what you expected you would find...... a little too peaky....... you have already mentioned that you are unlikely to make any more peak power (logically), and I think that you will sacrifice a little of that peak and make useable gains elsewhere (so much so that it will "feel" more powerful, but in fact make 1 or perhaps 2 Ps less, in return for that nice torquey long power curved engine you want!

    That's my experience any way!
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  11. #821
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    I enjoyed the vid.

    Quote Originally Posted by SS90 View Post

    I believe that you could (with better exhaust and porting) get a really rideable bike with, say (just for a number) 18 PS, and 16 NM, with a VERY long power band.
    This is where I would like to go.

    .

  12. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sully60 View Post
    I think you need more preload on the rear and dial in some more dampening to deal with it, I'd try that first.
    I will give this a go Sunday and let you know how it pans out. Many thanks.

    .

  13. #823
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    Dyno runs of another two Team ESE GP125’s, both engines are basically standard GP125’s with 1.75mm skimmed from the top of the barrel and “O” ringed, KX80 ignitions and running home made RM125 spec pipes. No other changes to the ports or inlet timing.

    First runs for both were about 14Hp at 8,000/8500 rpm. The only changes were advancing the ignition timing to greater than the standard 20 BTDC and leaning the mains from 112.5 or so to around 105 (std is about 90-95).

    1st pic max hp 16.5 @ 9,500rpm and max torque 9.75 ft-lbs @ 8,750rpm.

    2nd pic max hp 18.3 @ 10,000rpm and max torque 10.4 ft-lbs @ 8,500rpm.

    Interestingly the motor (second pic) with the original non-squish open hemisphere head made the most power, 18hp @ 10,000rpm and has a sharp peak @ 11,500rpm. Not sure why it has this peak, but have a few ideas as I have seen similar curves on MOTA and changes to the exhaust port width plumped the curve up just before the peak.

    The bike in pic 1 has a squish head and high compression. I suspect its over compressed and that is why the power is dropping at the top end. I think that if we reduce the compression ratio of the first bike we will get more Hp and a graph more like the second pic.

    Even more interesting is these bikes had to have their ignition timing advanced to the max limit allowed by the backing plate where mine had to be fully retarded and all three bikes run about the same (105, 107.5) main jet.

    The difference between the red and green lines is 1 notch on the needle. These two bikes run the needle clip on the 3rd setting and mine with the big exhaust port runs on the 1st (top) setting with a 102.5 main jet and way retarded ignition for 19.5hp.

    Look at that wide flat power band in pic 2.

    If SS90 can help us improve on that, there are going to be some FXR's in big, big trouble.

    .
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  14. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    16.5 @ 9,500rpm and max torque 9.75 ft-lbs @ 8,750rpm.
    17.5
    18.3 @ 10,000rpm and max torque 10.4 ft-lbs @ 8,500rpm.
    19.5
    .
    who is going to be first to 20 ????

    can we measure the red and yellow bikes see ifwe can get 14 and 15 hp ????
    the we would have a full house (or is it a flush) I always lost at gambling
    "Instructions are just the manufacturers opinion on how to install it" Tim Taylor of "Tool Time"
    “Saying what we think gives us a wider conversational range than saying what we know.” - Cullen Hightower

  15. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Look at that wide flat power band in pic 2.

    .
    is right!
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