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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #8716
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    More news from Richard Maas. Did his trombone pipe give the desired results? O yes. At 10,000 rpm it gives 4 HP more than the same engine with a fixed pipe. It runs over 17,000 rpm without the need for a powerjet and with a fixed ignition timing. It is miles better than an engine with an exhaust power valve. And the mapping of pipe length, ignition timing and powerjet pulse width has yet to be carried out. Maybe the powerjet can disappear altogether.
    Only problem so far: the piece of pipe that is fixed to the cylinder, is shrouded by the pipe that slides over it, so it gets very hot. Too hot for the Viton O-ring that is taking care of sealing. Any bright ideas, anyone?
    Just been re- reading and couldn't help but wonder if the system is fully functioning, did anyone solve the sealing issue of the sliding surfaces.

    Further with the aprilia RSW / RSA exhaust port, the exhaust stub fitted to the barrel is approximately 40mm long and roughly has an internal diameter of 43mm, the port shape within the barrel is not round leaving a large step upon the upper and lower surfaces, how,why what is going on here ? I'm aware this is common to several engines but I have never spent the time to ask myself as to what may be the reason for this, I can only imagine there must be a good reason for this but I'm unable to think of one

  2. #8717
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    Wobbly, are you there?
    This one is for you, as I promised my lady a holiday and she promised to throw my laptop out the window if I don't stop answering forum questions.

  3. #8718
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    That is all ready covered in this thread... somewhere

    one little snipped i could find for now:

    Originally Posted by wobbly
    Only Yamaha stuck with the wank flat roof scenario way after the use by date, and got their arses kicked for years in GP.

    Till they finally bought a CNC controlled Jante machine from Czech, went square bore/stroke and using the 500 cylinders on the 250 easily won the champs in 2000 with Olivier Jaques.

    The secondarys facing each other relatively flat will always collide, but the hooks rotate the flow under the boost as it exits the port ( easy to see with the tap water Jante trick),clearing out a big "dead" area
    in front of the rear port.

    All modern race engines have a nozzle restriction at the flange face, as big T ports and tripple Exhausts loose alot of velocity going into the header.
    Rule of thumb is a 75% of the effective EX area at the flange.
    Stepped oval duct into a round flange does work, but I have used a CNC oval to round transition in the spigot for years, as has Honda in A kit, and Aprilia factory engines, this works way better.

    Here is a sim showing my new 400cc F3 engine, with and without the spigot nozzle.

    The stinger nozzle effectively removes the stinger tube length from the equation - it was developed for Spencers NSR that had one stinger 150 long, the other was 450. The nozzle is around 2 to 3mm smaller than the tube stinger .

  4. #8719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    A (partly) closed powervalve will spoil the exhaust pulse and exclude true 180°-resonance, so you will never get a decent torque value.
    I have had a re read of your original post, thanks .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    The short answer is yes. But why is it that each time you people sit down for five minutes to write a question, I have to sit down for two hours to write an answer?

    When the exhaust port opens, a pressure pulse starts moving through the exhaust pipe. It is reflected at the end cone and it should be back at the cylinder just before the exhaust port closes.
    Next a part of this reflected pulse bounces off the partly-closed exhaust port and a residual pulse starts moving down the exhaust pipe. This residual pulse too is reflected by the end cone and starts moving back to the cylinder. Ideally it will arrive at the exhaust port just when the port opens again. Then the cylinder pressure and the pressure of the residual pulse combine their energy and the resulting pulse will be stronger than the pulse from the previous cycle. And the combined pulse from the next cycle will be stronger still, and so on; we have achieved true resonance.

    Some may argue that we want a low pressure in the exhaust pipe when the port opens because then the spent gases will experience less resistance while leaving the cylinder. But that is not true. Gas flow depends on a pressure difference ratio. But once that ratio reaches 2, the flow velocity will reach Mach 1, the speed of sound. Raising the pressure difference any further will not raise the flow velocity any further.
    The cylinder pressure at exhaust opening can be as high as 7 bar and the pressure of the reflected pulse will be about 2 bar. Thus the pressure ratio is well above 2, so lowering the pressure in the exhaust duct outside the cylinder will not do any good to the flow.

    What has the exhaust timing got to do with the 'true resonance' I mentioned above?
    The initial pulse starts moving at Exhaust Opening and it has to be back at Exhaust Closing, or a little earlier. This pulse travels with the speed of sound and its journey up and down the exhaust pipe will take t seconds.
    The residual pulse starts moving at Exhaust Closing and it has to be back at the next Exhaust Opening. This pulse also travels with the speed of sound and its journey up and down the exhaust pipe will also take t seconds.
    So from EO to EC takes t seconds and from EC to EO also takes t seconds. In English: the exhaust port should be open just as long as it should be closed.
    Assuming that the crankshaft rotates with a uniform speed, this means that the crank angle during which the exhaust is open must be equal to the crank angle during which the port is closed. So both angles must be 180°.

    I developed this line of thought some 40 years ago, but when I first published it in 1978 (in the motorcycle magazine Moto73 of which I was the technical editor) everybody called me crazy. Some people still do, but I got used to it .

    Above I made a couple of assumptions. The crankshaft does not rotate with a uniform speed, but at high revs the deviation is negligible. In case you really want to know, I did the math for the Aprilia RSA125. At a nominal rpm of 13,000 the minimum rotation speed is 12970 rpm @ 107° after TDC and the maximum value is 13031 rpm @ 356° aTDC. What's more significant: the deviation in crankshaft position from truly uniform rotation is always less than 1°. So that really is negligible.

    Second assumption: both the initial pulse and the residual pulse move with the speed of sound. Not true: the pulse pressures in exhaust waves are so high that acoustics rules do not apply any more. We are dealing with gas dynamics here and the stronger a pulse, the faster it moves. Since the residual pulse is weaker than the initial pulse, they move at different speeds. But we will leave this aside for now.

    Third assumption: the initial pulse starts moving as soon as the exhaust port starts opening. More or less true, but we are not interested in the first weak appearance of the pulse; we want to know when the pulse reaches its maximum amplitude. And that requires a certain amount of open exhaust port area. It turns out that for our desired theoretical exhaust timing of 180° we will need a geometrical exhaust timing of about 190°, depending on the shape of the port: does it open gradually or does it open over its full width all at once.
    The obvious question will be: why has the Aprilia RSA125 a geometrical exhaust timing of about 200°? True, at 190° the maximum torque value would be higher, but the engine would not want to rev because the blowdown time.area would be too small.
    The 200° are a compromise: a bit less torque and a bit more revs; as long as the torque decline is smaller than the rpm rise, we gain horsepower.
    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    The tech term for what Frits is describing is Superposition of the Ex pulse.
    This is easily described in a sim, where a residual pressure ratio is seen sitting at the Ex port when it is opening.
    The "new " pulse is added to this residual, and a very large pressure ratio exits down the duct to the header.
    The larger the initial ratio, the larger the amplitude of the wave in the diffuser - this creates a deeper depression around BDC, and it is this that initiates the biggest mass flow
    from the transfers.
    The lower Ex timings of 190 and below create larger residual pressure ratios,over a wider band, and thus these work with a good pipe design to use "resonance" to increase band width and also peak power.
    Big problem though is this whole concept is at odds with maximising blowdown to allow good peak power and more importantly, overev power.

    The sim shows RGV100 making serious power with the superposition pulse going down the duct - off the scale.

    Re the trombone pipe results you did sims for TeeZee.
    Look carefully when you say it seems to affect the top end "more ".
    At 9000 the lowest reading is 13 Hp, the highest reading is 17 Hp, thats an increase of 4 Hp, thats 31% more power in the bottom end, that then allows the thing to rev to 17,000.
    Seems a not bad result.

    Re the powerjet temp result you mentioned.
    The effect of the solenoid powerjet is as you described - this I only discovered recently with a datalogger that I could set the sample rate of the EGT high enough to read the temps quick enough - along
    with some exposed junction probes.
    I was testing a RS125 on the dyno and it was making NO power past 12500, looking at the data you could see the egt drop from 640 C to 580 in around 400 rpm.
    After fixing the fact some idiot had left out the rpm plug in the loom, the solenoid now switched on at 12200, and the temp stabilised at 650 past 12500 and the thing than reved out to 13500 +.
    So the powerjet switching isnt making the mixture "lean"as such, it is simply maintaining the correct mixture, and thus the temp in the pipe.

  5. #8720
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    Simple answer re the odd shape and reduced area of the Ex duct exit is that with a 3 port cylinder, the area of the main port is plenty big enough to support the gas flow
    created by the power being made.
    The big Aux additional area allows better Blowdown STA, but this area is only needed above TRO.
    Thus having a huge duct simply drops the velocity, reducing the wave amplitude into the header.
    The Aprilia shape promotes the flow from the Aux ports by keeping the extra horizontal area all the way into the pipe - thus helping blowdown flow and overev power..
    Reducing the duct vol by having area reducing steps, keeps the velocity high and again promotes the flow regime in the side ports.
    There may be a case to say that the steps reduce backflow from the pipe at low rpm when it is too short,but for sure there is no outflow disruption,and in any case tests showed that power went up as the duct became smaller.
    I have exhaustively ( pun ) tested the vol/shape effects on a T port ( as has Mr H ) and an oval to round transition with no steps works better.
    A factory A Kit has a very small 41 by 32 oval, with a CNC transition into a 41 header.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  6. #8721
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    A big thanks guys, looks like I need to build me some new header spigots
    anyone know which page has a pic of this oval to round transition, I'm getting very forgetfull and just don't have the time to re-read this forum at the current time

  7. #8722
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    And you think we do?


    Try the advanced search for this thread & search say on Wobbly & CNC or something like that.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  8. #8723
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAW View Post
    A big thanks guys, looks like I need to build me some new header spigots
    anyone know which page has a pic of this oval to round transition, I'm getting very forgetfull and just don't have the time to re-read this forum at the current time
    here you go (did a thread search on "Only Yamaha stuck with the wank flat roof")

    Wer there any suggestions on where to put the o2r transition and how long it should be, ideally? Like percentage numbers or something like that.

  9. #8724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Wobbly, are you there?
    This one is for you, as I promised my lady a holiday and she promised to throw my laptop out the window if I don't stop answering forum questions.
    You forgot the simple bike pump analogy you gave me many moons ago Frits.

    "The connector between the pump and tube has a very narrow, the tyre will have much higher pressure than the pump, the connector make a high velocity pulse that can over come the pressure in the tube to force some more air into the tube. If the connector had a large volume the pump would only vary the pressure in the connector and never open the valve"

    Taken from my dodgy memory. Just another clever Jan Thiel trick.

    Further with the aprilia RSW / RSA exhaust port, the exhaust stub fitted to the barrel is approximately 40mm long and roughly has an internal diameter of 43mm, the port shape within the barrel is not round leaving a large step upon the upper and lower surfaces, how,why what is going on here ? I'm aware this is common to several engines but I have never spent the time to ask myself as to what may be the reason for this, I can only imagine there must be a good reason for this but I'm unable to think of one .

  10. #8725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haufen View Post
    here you go (did a thread search on "Only Yamaha stuck with the wank flat roof")

    Wer there any suggestions on where to put the o2r transition and how long it should be, ideally? Like percentage numbers or something like that.
    Cheers, appreciate the help,
    So many things to contemplate now, spigots, trumpet pipes & there drive systems, oh well I suppose I won't get bored, just frustrated on how i may go about all of this new learnt performance advancement correctly

  11. #8726
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAW View Post
    ... don't have the time to re-read this forum at the current time
    You can also use Thread Tools then View Thread Images and sort them 70 to a page, thats a quicker way of re finding interesting stuff.

  12. #8727
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I am taking another look at the plenum, tonight I Devcon puttied up the inside of the chamber so that any fuel dropout runs to a collection point and can be pumped away by the pulse pump. Hopefully this will get over the unstable fuel mixture issues with the puddling problem we had before.

    At the moment the chamber is 1L and EngMod suggests 2L would be better so a bit of work to be done there. For anyone interested in the math, 2L makes the plenum 16 times the size of the engine.

  13. #8728
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    Exactly the reason that the so called pumping pressure the Yanks love is a complete and utter waste of time.
    Unless you use the same guage for years and understand the numbers it tells you.
    Spin the engine over and it pumps up 180 psi - change the dia or length of tube between the gauge and the plug hole and the number changes.
    Accurate as hell eh - even how much lube on the bore will change the number.
    Just lazy bastards that dont want to or dont know how to, do it properly, will think this is just fine.
    16 :1 full stroke com is a calculated number - who gives a shit where the Ex port opens, the ratio is still the same.
    If its the correct ratio to use with a specific port timing is another matter altogether.
    Lets at least try and move ahead in the most accurate and repeatable way possible
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  14. #8729
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    Exactly the reason that the so called pumping pressure the Yanks love is a complete and utter waste of time. Lets at least try and move ahead in the most accurate and repeatable way possible
    Totaly True .....

    But there is another use for knowing the pumping pressure .....

    Having accurately cc'd the clearance volume and adjusted it to the design spec, measuring the actual pumping pressure hot with your trusty compression tester can be very useful when trying to diagnose a problem like I had at Taupo.

    Where there was enough compression to feel good pulling the back wheel over but less than the original pumping pressure was or should be.

    If I had recorded that and measured what I had at Taupo I would have known where the problem was. There are times when having a compression gauge and knowing what the original pumping pressure hot at cranking speed was can be very handy. Of course in the interests of repetability it pays to use the same gauge.

    If you were not to lazy to have noted the original pressure, re checking it in times of trouble is as simple as checking for spark and fuel really and just as important.

    When the engine refuses to play the game, if it was built properly and has been running well before, who cares what the designed clearance volume or com ratio was.

    At the track, its all about Compression Pressure plus Fuel and a Spark at the right time, the three essentials and it pays to know all you can about each of them.

  15. #8730
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Totaly True .....

    But there is another use for knowing the pumping pressure .....

    Having accurately cc'd the clearance volume and adjusted it to the design spec, measuring the actual pumping pressure hot with your trusty compression tester can be very useful when trying to diagnose a problem like I had at Taupo.
    .......
    When the engine refuses to play the game, if it was built properly and has been running well before, who cares what the designed clearance volume or com ratio was.

    At the track, its all about Compression Pressure plus Fuel and a Spark at the right time, the three essentials and it pays to know all you can about each of them.
    Yip; that's why I test (same old meter; which I do check periodicity) it after rebuilds and write it on the inside of the frame or engrave it on the head. nothing worst than loosing your bit of paper in your toolbox on race day; when the pressure is on to sort it out....... I do agree with Wobs; but comp testing is another tool to help make diagnostics and if used correctly does help (just don't forget to measure the temp as well; I never understood why the testers didn't have a temp probe built in as well).

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