Forum whore
Sorry you are right , I use ARGON from my tig set, why the hell I wrote Oxy with no Alky in my system is a mystery.
An air compressor with a reg would work fine, the point was that i pump up 100s of engines and got sick of pumping furiously whilst trying to find the leaks - needs 3 hands.
Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.
Highway Biker
Don't worry, I salute your place every morning I drive past dropping the sprog off to school.Originally Posted by F5 Dave
Far too busy being an international man of misery these days. But I did notice an early version of your 50 while wandering through SFO airport earlier this year:
Highway Biker
Thats good to hear! Thanks for the clarification
Ever think of hiring a glamorous assistant?
Cheers,
FM
Highway Biker
Sounds like you need a glamorous assistant as well...
Cheers,
FM
Hardcore Biker
blow up
and the last thing you guys need is a nother thing to blow your motors up
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
That 50 is Kewl!@
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
and the only blowing up you do these days is that doll that you hide in the garage cheeky git.
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
Forum whore
All this talk about hand pumps, dickeys and shafts makes me wonder about you mate.
Forum whore
He doesn't hide it...
Forum whore
Page 590 ...
jan thiel on part throttle deto
"I am 100% convinced our engine could have run for 6 hours at max power without seizing.
The problems arise when you close the throttle, or run part throttle!
The piston is mainly cooled by the transfer flow.
And at part throttle there is less transfer flow, causing detonation (auto ignition)
The entering fresh charge is ignited by the remaining, hot, burned gases!
You can see very severe damage to the piston after maybe 10 seconds at 20% throttle.
This still is an unresolved problem! I was thinking about a way to reduce engine power without closing the throttle. But how can you do this? I did not find a solution before I retired.
And nobody else was really interested.
At 100% throttle the engine was undestructible!
By making the transfer ports as wide as possible we had very good piston cooling."
No answer here but at least we are not alone with engines that fail on part throttle
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3173p60-gp1...vermars-part-2
Brian Callahan
Jan or others, how did you control the tuned pipe wall temperature (or EGT directly?) when testing on dyno? This seemed the most difficult thing to mimic when testing either the GP engines at QUB or my R/C boat engines, in the lab. The inertial dyno or computer controlled brake seem to work best because we can match the test engine's acceleration with reality. On steady-state testing, EGT would simply climb 500, 600, 700, 750 °C until way past reality and the piston would seize.
Frits Overmars
This has always been one of Jan's greatest handicaps. He has asked for an inertial test bench over and over, but Aprilias race director Witteveen, or The Great Leader as we call him, never deemed it necessary....
Jan Thiel
When EGT goes up and up there should be some serious problem with the engine.
We never had pistons seize during our steady state tests.
Working on the dyno continuously 5 days a week!
I am 100% convinced our engine could have run for 6 hours at max power without seizing.
The problems arise when you close the throttle, or run part throttle!
The piston is mainly cooled by the transfer flow.
And at part throttle there is less transfer flow, causing detonation (auto ignition)
The entering fresh charge is ignited by the remaining, hot, burned gases!
You can see very severe damage to the piston after maybe 10 seconds at 20% throttle.
This still is an unresolved problem! I was thinking about a way to reduce engine power without closing the throttle. But how can you do this? I did not find a solution before I retired.
And nobody else was really interested.
At 100% throttle the engine was undestructible!
By making the transfer ports as wide as possible we had very good piston cooling.
As Frits has written, I would have liked to have also a dynamic testing possibility, with a flywheel.
In my opinion you should simulate a straight, starting at around 10.000 rpm, and shift through the gears
until you reach top speed. And with the airbox as used on the bike, with a ventilator that simulates the raising
air speed as it would be on track! Maybe it is interesting to know that without a ventilator the engine gave
less power with the airbox fitted.
I was told that such a testing system was too expensive.
And unnecessary as we won anyway!
I can also see a disadvantage of 'dynamic' testing.
Because the duration of the test is so short you can get away with very extreme (too extreme?) settings,
without damage.
GrahamB
Remember that retarding the ignition is used at high rpm to increase exhaust temps and effectively shorten the pipe. So it's likely to increase the heating of the front edge of the piston...
Haufen
Yes I know, but part load egt is usually lower than full load egt. And I think most of us would prefer higher part load egt over part load detonation. Of course, how far one could go and how far one would need to go would have to be tested, and how much would be needed would depend on the engine.
Mic
How about much larger travel on the exhaust power valve.
With a shorter exhaust port duration power is lower. And this is already controlled with the stepmotor over the ECU.
Jan Thiel
This causes detonation (auto ignition)
The problem is that the burned gases do not exit the cilinder!
Retarding ignition also does not make sense.
As you have an AUTO-inition problem!
So the engine does not 'listen' to its ECU anymore!
What you would need is the same fresh gas flow, but with less HP!
Not easy to achieve!
A variable tailpipe might help.
Jan Thiel
Haufen, We also had such a test bench at Aprlia.
The prototype of this test bench was developed by Apicom in collaboration wit Aprilia.
So we had it first, and now anyone can buy it.
It was helpful but not what I wanted.
A so-called step test.
And without the airbox!
Frits Overmars
Like Jan wrote, a shorter exhaust duration will worsen the detonation. What happens is this:
During normal operation, the blowdown time.area of the exhaust ports is sufficient to drop the cylinder pressure below the crankcase pressure before the transfer ports open, even at high rpm.
At part-throttle that cylinder pressure will drop to the same level, but now the crankcase pressure is much lower and exhaust gases will enter the transfer ducts, contaminating and heating the fresh mixture even before it enters the cylinder.
A theoretical solution would be a power valve that enlarges the normal exhaust timing instead of lowering it. But that is impractical as it would ruin the shape of the exhaust duct and it would cause cooling problems in the cylinder's exhaust area.
A variable tailpipe area, like Jan says, can be a more practical approach. I designed a simple solution, shown in the drawing below, but then two-stroke development at Aprilia was terminated because of Dorna's ban on two-strokes
Howard Gifford
Another way to lower HP without sacrificing piston cooling would be to richen the mixture when you want to lower the power. With a signal to a fuel enrichening solenoid you could achieve a power range. It would then be instantaneous and programmable. Not enviornmentally friendly but would work for racing. The mixture ratio difference from high power to low power would need to be just rich enough before a misfire and just lean enough for sustained high power.
The variable tailpipe idea will work but I suspect the pipe temperature would drop off and it would take several seconds to regain full power. But then again rich mixture may have the same problem.
Two strokes are like redheads. Hard to figure out and very temperamental. But when they are happy they are a lot of fun!
HG
Jan Thiel a écrit:
The entering fresh charge is ignited by the remaining, hot, burned gases!
You can see very severe damage to the piston after maybe 10 seconds at 20% throttle.
This still is an unresolved problem! I was thinking about a way to reduce engine power without closing the throttle. But how can you do this? I did not find a solution before I retired.
And nobody else was really interested.
Institute of TwoStrokes
On aftermarket ignitions I use there is a mode I can switch on where a number of indivdual sparks are cut, depending on throttle position. It is now only configured for cutting 1 in every 3 sparks on over run(tps <10% with high rpm). Would that sort of system solve the part throttle detonation? If the number of sparks cut could be varied along with TPS for this to begin and end? If it would be helpful I'm certain the manufacturer would only need a software change to do this.
Jan Thiel
I certainly thought about cutting sparks.
But remember: the problem was AUTO-ignition!
GrahamB a écrit:
Remember that retarding the ignition is used at high rpm to increase exhaust temps and effectively shorten the pipe. So it's likely to increase the heating of the front edge of the piston...
Jan Thiel
Indeed, retarding too much caused detonation!
Institute of TwoStrokes a écrit:
Jan Thiel a écrit: The entering fresh charge is ignited by the remaining, hot, burned gases! You can see very severe damage to the piston after maybe 10 seconds at 20% throttle.
This still is an unresolved problem! I was thinking about a way to reduce engine power without closing the throttle. But how can you do this? On aftermarket ignitions I use there is a mode I can switch on where a number of individual sparks are cut, depending on throttle position. Would that sort of system solve the part throttle detonation?
Frits Overmars
As Jan pointed out, once you have auto-ignition, the engine does not listen to its ECU any more. So you would have to start skipping sparks well before the onset of detonation.
In a foul-stroke your proposed system does work, but a two-stroke would react far from linear. For example, if you skip 1 in 4 sparks, you will loose much more than 25% of engine power because that one missing spark will cause the gasdynamics processes to collapse. The main problem would be to realise a smooth transition from intermittent to full ignition.
Jan Thiel a écrit:
Retarding ignition also does not make sense.
As you have an AUTO-inition problem!
So the engine does not 'listen' to its ECU anymore!
What you would need is the same fresh gas flow, but with less HP!
Not easy to achieve!
A variable tailpipe might help.
Haufen
I think I expressed myself unclearly. What I meant was the following:
Imagine your engine with the throttle opened just above the auto-ignition range. Then you have sufficient transfer flow, but too much power. To lower the power, now retard the ignition. Then you still have sufficient transfer flow, but with less power.
I think Honda used auto-ignition to their advantage on two-strokes. As far as I remember they did it with a (very) variable exhaust power valve.
Frits Overmars a écrit:
Mic a écrit:
How about much larger travel on the exhaust power valve. With a shorter exhaust port duration power is lower. And this is already controlled with the stepmotor over the ECU.
Frits Overmars a écrit:
Like Jan wrote, a shorter exhaust duration will worsen the detonation. What happens is this:
During normal operation, the blowdown time.area of the exhaust ports is sufficient to drop the cylinder pressure below the crankcase pressure before the transfer ports open, even at high rpm.
At part-throttle that cylinder pressure will drop to the same level, but now the crankcase pressure is much lower and exhaust gases will enter the transfer ducts, contaminating and heating the fresh mixture even before it enters the cylinder.
A theoretical solution would be a power valve that enlarges the normal exhaust timing instead of lowering it. But that is impractical as it would ruin the shape of the exhaust duct and it would cause cooling problems in the cylinder's exhaust area.
A variable tailpipe area, like Jan says, can be a more practical approach. I designed a simple solution, shown in the drawing below.
Haufen
I think I have not gotten behind the variable tailpipe idea, yet. What would you like to vary with it and to achieve which effects? At little throttle openings the pressure inside the exhaust pipe is already very close to atmospheric pressure (if not even) on most engines. And if you had say 100mbar inside the pipe at the critical throttle opening, then the engine might have had more power with a bigger tailpipe.
Frits Overmars
'Opening' the end of the reflector will cause a substantial weakening of the reflected pulse and thus less charging of the cylinder. Izze simple, no?
Haufen a écrit:
Variable transfer timing would be nice also, if feasible.
Frits Overmars
That would be my ideal. Lowering all the transfer roofs would shorten the transfer timing and lengthen the blowdown timing, so the cylinder pressure would drop further before the transfers would open. It would cure the hig revs/low power-detonation and it would improve the power band because a too early-returning exhaust pulse would have less opportunity to push the fresh cylinder contents back into the crankcase.
A controllable transfer height would even make a throttle valve unnecessary.
There's only the little problem of how to build it...
Jan Thiel
Haufen, Auto-ignition usually occurs between 10 to 40% throttle at high revs.
In fast, non full throttle corners.
Retarding the ignition was tried to diminish power.
This makes the exhaust very hot.
Then, when you need full power, it is not there because the exhaust temperatures are wrong.
This takes a little time, when the engine is back to full power you are already at the end of the straight!
The same goes for water injection in the exhaust.
It was tried by Rotax about 25 years ago.
There was a LOT more power at low revs, so the rider had to take it easy when opening the throttle.
But the engine revved a little bit less, because the exhaust temperature did not recover at high revs.
And lap times became actually slower.
After a day of testing the system was switched off.
Lap times immediately improved!
A very important thing when accelerating is the power you have after changing gear.
Spark interruption may be not so good for this!
As I did not have the dyno I wanted this gearchange effect could not be tried on the dyno, very regrettably!
Retarding the ignition and weakening the mixture by powerjet can also have a negative effect on this.
The exhaust temperature should be 'Right' for the No. of revs after you change gear.
If the temperature is too high there will be less power!
So it is REALLY complicated!
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
Does that mean its time for a friday afternoon Musical Interlude?
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
Forum whore
In addition to engine leak testing I like to test piston ring leakage.
You don't need to plug any inlet or exhaust openings. Just connect the contraption in the drawing below to a compressed air line and to the plug hole, and hold the crankshaft in a position where all ports are closed.
Close the valve and set the pressure on the gauge to a fixed value that you will always use. Then open the valve.
If the ring seals 100%, the gauge will rise to 100% of the pre-set pressure, no matter how narrow the restriction is.
If the ring doesn't seal at all, there will be no pressure build-up in the cylinder and the gauge will show zero.
With this setup I have even been able to tell at which side of the piston the ring got stuck in the groove: the con rod inclination will push the piston to one side of the cylinder and lift the ring from the other side if it is stuck at that other side.
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
that was the method some kart chap was describing, but I'd never heard anyone else doing such. He then started wibbling on about running in on non synthetic & my eyes glazed over, but maybe I should re-evaluate my preconceptions. and build such a rig. thanks
I can see the 'Did it pick up' question could be answered in many cases with such a rig.
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
Bogeyman
I cleaned most of my workshop looking for my version... it's gone. Mine had a needle valve where your restriction is as well as a ball valve on the downstream side of the gauge. For normal use the PRV was set to about 20psi, close the needle valve to test leakage, back on to re-set.
It'll turn up one day, you wait.
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Forum whore
Such an experience will influence your workshop like a new girlfriend will influence your house.
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