ESE's works engine tuner

[wax]

The hit clutch is a product made by dr pulley. It's half of the issue of getting rid of the lag. Im confused as to why it would seem like such a hard task. you have to mount the engine and thats really it. There is no gearshift clutch to work out. There is mutiple forums and sites about tuning this things. But lets see what other people come up with.

The tgb system is not a competition based unit. It comes out std on scooter they make.


I guess its easier to find fault in the idea than it is to actually do it. But the cvt is aproven system that works very well.

[richban]

Had a proper look at the dyno overlay today. Interesting for sure and a big help to see where we stand. I have 6 more at 8 and you have 6 more at 12. Now I am sure we can bring the gap closer at each end. I did feel having that drivability from low down on the small track was an advantage for sure. On Taupo that would be a different story. I would happily swap 6 hp from the bottom to the top. But saying that I did see the beast bite hard and launch another pilot into space right in front of me. Freaked me out for the whole race.

Anyway I must say thanks to you Rob and Cully for letting us pollute the workshop with the 4 strokes over the weekend. Storing the bikes there saved lots of hassle. Also for putting us onto Big J's Burgers. Best buggers ever. We stopped in at the Track in Tokoroa on the trip home. Looking at the length of the back straight I think the beast will be able to stretch its legs for sure.

Fun times.

[cotswold]

But saying that I did see the beast bite hard and launch another pilot into space right in front of me. Freaked me out for the whole race.
. We stopped in at the Track in Tokoroa on the trip home. Looking at the length of the back straight I think the beast will be able to stretch its legs for sure.

Fun times.[/QUOTE]

It freaked me out for the whole meeting, the beast bites hard for sure but with some carb tweeks it may yet suprise.

[husaberg]

They would have been a lot faster, and easier to ride as well. I would have built one decades ago but the 'maximum 6 speeds' rule prevented it.
Don't be confused by a CT's tendency to drop the revs when you close the throttle and then come back with some lag when you open it again; that is only in-built behaviour to increase the acceptance for street-riding. Don't think either that the main advantage of a CVT is that it will handle narrow powerbands better. It will, but the character of a good racing engine doesn't need this.
The CVT's main advantage is that there are no shift-related power cuts while accelerating. And no, it's not about the tenths of seconds that the power is absent; it is all about keeping the gas dynamics in the engine on full song all the time. When you shift, power has to be interrupted for a moment (seamless shift boxes excepted) which means the exhaust pulses will stop. After a shift event the engine sound will return immediately, but engine power will not.

but you may need a alternate method of starting the beast though TZ.

My initial thoughts were to use a CVT as well semi overdrive to overlap the gears.
it would of course have two problems it would have to be modded to only offer about a .75:1 reduction (not that hard limit the travel)and it would be near impossible to fit it on the primary drive with a conventional clutch set up still in place.
Whereas on the secondary drive it would spin about 1/3-1/6 engine speed (depending on what gear it was in)which may not be a bad thing.
Possible problems with the overlaping gear ratios principal would be you would know when to change as when the cvt od kicked in the rev counter would remain stationary........it also goes against the KISS principal
As a standalone unit the Salisbury unit on the Rokon offers a overall spread of ratios between 3.76 and .087:1.

If you read the article it says acceleration was not a issue......... although cornering on the tarmac might........

I thought my half backed mussing deserve some scorn (at least) heaped on them.

Now would this actually be a 6 speed or ten speed box.

1st 2.73
2nd 1.85
3rd 1.41
4th 1.14
5th 0.96

CVT timed to cut in at or near peak revs on output jack shaft as TZ mused. travel restricted to 0.75:1

1st 2.73-2.05:!
2nd 1.85-1.38:1
3rd 1.41-1.05:1
4th 1.14-0.88:1
5th 0.96-0.72:1 The gear ratios were chosen at random(cb350four i think) i guess TZ's GP are actually closer........

With these overlapping ratios there should be a lot less time off peak power.
Of course 5 gears would possibly be to many it should at least lessen the need gearshifting.

But a full CVT would be easier and legal (until proven otherwise provide the parts used were kosher...)

dosn't stop you copying them now dose it ?

no or modding standard parts either

You would not need to build much at all. Just start with a standard one and make the rollers you need and the springs. Gilear 180 should be close to what you want. I will look today and see if I have any old vespa bits.

to right.... or any other more suitable bits like those big scooters....

[kel]

the beast bites hard for sure but with some carb tweeks it may yet suprise.

Dont you dare, it took some serious tuning to get it to hit hard when opening the throttle. Its the BEAST not Grannies scooter.

[TZ350]

... a full CVT would be easier and legal ...

I agree, and as for the tune up goodies.

My thinking is that if the after market parts are marked, "For Racing Use Only" for marketing and legal reasons it does not nessacarily disqualify them.

Because if 95% of the components wind up in road going machines clearly the motivation for manufacturing the parts is to satisfy the customised road bike/scooter market and in reality they are just after market parts for the road that are good enough to be used in a race rig if you wanted to.

And its true TZ racing parts could be used in a RD road bike but that does not make them after market road bike parts because 95% or more of TZ parts were used in TZ road racers so clearly the motivation manufacturing those parts was to support racing competition.

Regardless of what the copy writers, legal beagles and add men say I think its the manufacturers target market that defines whether the part is an illegal race part or legal after market bling.

Anyway its a bit of a grey area and I will be interested in what others have to say.

[husaberg]

I agree, and as for the tune up goodies.

My thinking is that if the after market parts are marked, "For Racing Use Only" for marketing and legal reasons it does not nessacarily disqualify them.

Because if 95% of the components wind up in road going machines clearly the motivation for manufacturing the parts is to satisfy the customised road bike/scooter market and in reality they are just after market parts for the road that are good enough to be used in a race rig if you wanted to.

Its true TZ racing parts could be used in a RD road bike but 95% or more of TZ parts were used in TZ road racers so clearly the motivation manufacturing those parts was to support racing competition.

Regardless of what the copy writers and add men say I think its the manufacturers target market that defines whether the part is an illegal race part or legal after market bling.

Anyway its a bit of a grey area and I will be interested in what others have to say.

well here is my 10 cents. Plenty of off road bikes (that are not competition bikes.) like say crf50s's have stickers that say "not for road use"
i define the rule as it was written.

Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.
Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.

But the the hot up clutch parts (assuming they are marketed as competition that is)are even a little grey for me...... plus not needed anyway.

Scooters seem to be a market that caters for shinny bolt on rather than DIY tuning so the market gets the parts that it wants.
If sketchy can make a Supercharger I am sure one of us can re-manufacture a CVT. or at the very least reverse engineer one.

[wax]

There is no need to put a gear box with the cvt as it has such a range it can handle from stop to full out. And it can hold the engine on it peak power the entire time. I can set my one uo ti have a 350 rpm varitation from take off to top speed. It takes time to get it this accurate but it makes them go well as well as makes the power delivery to the back wheel also very smooth. I have raced enough gearbox bikes and been right over in a corner on there back wheel and seen the distortion that goes through the bike when they change gear mid corner. There is none of that with a cvt.

Believe me there are plenty of parts you can get that are not marked track only. If you do decide to go down this route then pm me and I will let you onto some ideas on how to make a very reactive cvt that responds very hard

scootercentre.com have a look whats available and this is just one of the sites

[husaberg]

There is no need to put a gear box with the cvt as it has such a range it can handle from stop to full out. And it can hold the engine on it peak power the entire time. I can set my one uo ti have a 350 rpm varitation from take off to top speed. It takes time to get it this accurate but it makes them go well as well as makes the power delivery to the back wheel also very smooth. I have raced enough gearbox bikes and been right over in a corner on there back wheel and seen the distortion that goes through the bike when they change gear mid corner. There is none of that with a cvt.

Believe me there are plenty of parts you can get that are not marked track only. If you do decide to go down this route then pm me and I will let you onto some ideas on how to make a very reactive cvt that responds very hard

scootercentre.com have a look whats available and this is just one of the sites

I wasn't aware the stall speed (to use a car term) could be that high.
the musing about the gear box and CVT was to get around the FIM and formula 1 rule regarding number of gears (as Frits mentioned) which is mute
Why....... because they seem to have also banned two strokes anyway...........

plus freewheeling around corners would require some relearning for me.
If you have ever had a Ford Courier that pops out of fifth gear when you ease off the throttle you will know what i mean.
Having said that the kids on the MX50's don't seem to have a problem with it on the slipper clutch KTM's.......

[wax]

MY clutch comes in at 9700 on my 50. I set it up so that its coming in about 200 rpm into the power band t makes it launch off the line. Gearbox bikes dont have a chance against it in the drag to the first turn
And they don't freewheel around corners if you set them up with the right components. you can get a slipper clutch for them if you want to do that however.
Setting up a cvt takes a bit of work but when its done right the power is there and it is so smooth its awesome

[TZ350]

I don't know what type of scooter would be a good platform or where to buy a complete transmission engine unit from a wreaked one. I would be very interested in make/model suggestions and being pointed in the right direction to get a base unit to play with.

[speedpro]

I've put my Yamaha NXC125 scooter on the dyno. The power curve versus road speed is essentially flat for the range tested, 70-130Km/H. I'm using stock Yamaha transmission at the moment except for the higher final drive. It's so good with my motor I'm wondering what improvement could be made. There are plenty of aftermarket components for this scooter at least which aren't marketed as "race only". It helps to have a huge market for the bits mainly consisting of street ridden scooters.

They don't freewheel when the throttle is closed. What happens is that without load the CVT moves to the highest ratio meaning that essentially it shifts to top gear. Still not what you'd be used to on a shifter bike but I reckon you'd get round it no problem. What I like about the CVT is that in traffic you just twist the throttle and it shoots away, either at the lights or if you are already doing 80Km/H. That aspect of it would be awesome on a kart track.

Snow mobiles use a CVT transmission as well and the Canadians make all sorts of goodies good for up to 300+hp.

It wouldn't be ideal but I have wondered how it would go if a motorcycle swingarm was replaced with a scooter engine/transmission unit. Excellent tyres are available for the smaller wheels so that wouldn't be a problem.

[husaberg]

MY clutch comes in at 9700 on my 50. I set it up so that its coming in about 200 rpm into the power band t makes it launch off the line. Gearbox bikes dont have a chance against it in the drag to the first turn
And they don't freewheel around corners if you set them up with the right components. you can get a slipper clutch for them if you want to do that however.
Setting up a cvt takes a bit of work but when its done right the power is there and it is so smooth its awesome

ok i am intrigued if the clutch doesn't engage until 9700 how does the set up not freewheel then when the throttle is backed off for a corner?
when the revs drop below that level 9700rpm?

I used to enjoy road testing the DJ1 Hondas back in the day in the city as they would wheelie on the throttle which was unexpected on a 50 scooter.
On the other hand i wasn't a fan of the 8 inch front wheel though.

Not sure re the scooter re-engined bike. But as a sidecar project that would be interesting....

[speedpro]

It will disengage when the motor drops below the set revs. That was something I noticed on my scooter when I upped the gearing. The clutch disengages at about 35Km/H now, higher than it used to. Typically a scooter engine revs a lot lower than a screamer 50. You're right though. If you corner at a speed below that at which the CVT would be topped out in the highest ratio with no load, the engine revs will drop below the clutch engagement revs and it will disengage. Couple of problems there as noted including the possibility of the engine stalling. The one good thing about that is that if say the engine seizes it instantly drops below the clutch engagement revs and the clutch disengages. You only get a momentary wheel lockup then it freewheels. This I know from experiance.

[speedpro]

Rob and I have already talked about a sidecar with CVT, it'd be awesome though if you were using a whole scooter engine/transmission some sort of strengthening would be required to handle the loads when cornering though I already have that sorted in my mind. You'd let the front pivot flex a bit and have a seperate swingarm type of part connected to the standard scooter shock mounts via short adjustable rods using rose joints taking all the torsional loads rather than trying to resist them with the engine/transmission.