ESE's works engine tuner

[FastFred]

SS90 I cant help get the feeling by reading your posts your here that you have made your mind that its never going to work and your more intent on discrediting than learning

It may help to follow some of the links I post so it explains it better to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1BZP-31-Pg

Thanks Wax for your informative posts, you obviously know what your on about, and I think you have got SS90 figured.

[SS90]

The doctor pulley clutch is that just a clutch. It has nothing to do with the cvt torque driver or variator.

So it has nothing to do with the angles of the torque drive that frits is talking about. SS90 I cant help get the feeling by reading your posts your here that you have made your mind that its never going to work and your more intent on discrediting than learning

It may help to follow some of the links I post so it explains it better to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1BZP-31-Pg

Not at all, you may be being a little over sensitive, I'm just trying to get some information from someone that has experience, opposed to being sent to links, as I am of the opinion that information is best given from real world experience opposed to second hand information.

The ramp angles is something I mentioned earlier on, as I was lucky enough a few years back to have a very clever chap (working up the road at KTM) explain and draw me some images of how CVT style transmission (aspects of which are used in junior Motocrosss bikes) are in many ways superior, and the reason more development isn't done is simply because of market force (i.e the customers don't want it), but like many things, advantageous designs do actually catch on, evn if they come far far later than they were conceptualised.

Diescrediting you is mkst certainly not my aim, I am simply trying to get some concentrated discussion on how to get a CVT transmission working on a race bike that would make it superior (in a real world sense) to "conventional systems"

I have quite some experience racing in NZ and Europe, and in the last 6 years, plenty of that has been on scooters, some of which have been scootermatics, and the only guys that I have seen truly dominate (on scootermatics that is) have been feather weight string beans, put a beefier guy on one, and CVT transmission (from what I have seen) become difficult to set up, as you say, roller weights are a fairly straight forward affair, and Frits pointed out about rear springs ( the removal of paint I have seen, but didn't realise the true importance till now)

Using a GP1 engine fitted to a standard frame would seem like a good idea, but I can only see the problem of it being so damned long, it completely frigging your chain run, (critical in a conventional chassis) weight dispersal and so on (im not pissing on your idea here, just showing my opinion of why I am hesitant to say "wow, great idea")

I cant help but wonder if someone has gone to the effort of actually completing a GP1 engine in a chassis, and then raced it against a conventional bike, because if you could get the thing to handle, and least 2/3rds as well as a conventional bike, the advantages Frits has pointed out mean in your well in the game, perhaps even more than that.

Like I say, CVT equipped competition scooters, on tight tracks ,make for spectacular racing, and can (more often than not) show up conventional bikes, but, as far as I have seen, they can't cut it on the majority of tracks compared to conventional set ups.

Also, 30 P.S is heaps more than the winning bikes have, and they run shifter boxes, I cant currently see the need

[husaberg]

I spent far to much time of the computer and came up with these.......
I does kind of beg the question those of starting a engine that has no electric starter or privision for a crankshaft kick i realise it can be got around but maybe best to start with one designed for the starter and the correct direction of rotation too i guess.

http://www.buggypartsnw.com/home?pag...category_id=30

http://wqww.scooterfreaks.nl/forum/s...d.php?t=373412

http://blondesearch.ru/play/IyuC-LQE..._the_best.html

http://highgaintuning.blogspot.co.nz/

http://battlescooter.com/37.html

http://www.hartmaninc.com/clutchtips.html

http://www.hondapcx.org/viewtopic.ph...t=600&start=20

http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic10793.html

http://flexistentialist.org/blog/arc...transmissions/

http://www.49ccscoot.com/lighten.html

http://www.49ccscoot.com/budget.html



I also came across this which was kind of funky http://www.suckindiesel.com/thingy/v...hp?f=31&t=1242

All the ktm50s mx or trail up until the 2013 model were equipped with a two then three shoe clutch controlled by belvieu washers (cupped washers that serve as springs) or simple springs. no ramps


(the playbikes and mx earlier pre2002 had if i am not mistaken springs like a brakeshoe with a kind of a cam action in a way but not what we mean

simple springs again up to 2009 on the sx's and the 2013 50sx has this.

the clutch is no more clever than the Dominator which has been around for well over 10 years......but was illegal in nz junior MX

oh in 2009 they moved the clutch from the crankshaft and slowed it down a bit

[FastFred]

A CVT transmission looks like it has real potential .....

[Cheesy]

Hi Guys I have been searching through this thread (unsucessfully) for any of the GP100 port timings and modifications. If any have been posted could someone point me to the right page?
Thanks

[FastFred]

I have quite some experience racing in NZ and Europe, and in the last 6 years, plenty of that has been on scooters, some of which have been scootermatics,

That's good to hear, and Wax seems to know what he is on about, but as your more familiar with the Bucket racing rules maybe you could post something that contributes to sourcing legal parts or based on your own experience CVT tips and setup techniques.

[wax]

A gp1 runs in a chassis with a seperate swing arm. Had you looked at the links I have posted you would know this.

That's what I have been trying to say

[wax]

A well setup cvt does not care about the rider weight it will not aclerate as well due to the power to weight much like any bike. It's the same with a gearbox bike the lighter rider has the advantage as well.
If you put a heavier load on a cvt bike the engine will not be able to rev up and stay in a lower gear. The cvt changes gear by using a roller that flys out to change the gearing. It will make it stay in a lower gear longer. It just the same to setup for a light rider as a heavy rider. The setup changes when you change the engine setup not the rider weight

[SS90]

A gp1 runs in a chassis with a seperate swing arm. Had you looked at the links I have posted you would know this.

That's what I have been trying to say

A guy called Tony Foal (sp) makes a chassis design program that many consider the bees knees, if you manage to get a chance it is worth a look.

The problem I see with using the GP1 cases is that the sprocket is positioned on the end of the clutch shaft in (what is more or less) a standard CVT transmission case.

Putting this into a conventional chassis means your front sprocket position is going to be about a micky whisker away from where the swing arm pivot needs to be, unless of course you increase the angle the GP1 engine is mounted in, but this would put the engine crazy high in the frame, again detrimental to handling.

This is unfortunatey unusable in a conventional chassis, but in a GP1 chassis, where true handling and swing arm travel matter not, it's of little to no consequence.

maybe someone has an idea of how to design a CVT system that could work in a conventional chassis?

I personally don't. But would love to see someone that does!

Im not rubbishing you idea at all, just showing my opinion of why it's not the best solution, that would be making an entirely new set up that uses conventional cases, perhaps in a similar vein to how they convert wet clutches to dry, or how early unit construction stuff (the way Harley Davidson still do it) by having a separate primary drive case, that allows for a clever CVT design.

Take a look at Kart Sport, some classes have direct drive engines, you could cast your own cases (say like a KT100), have another rear case for the final drive gear and clutch set up, then connect the two with a CVT set up.

[teriks]

All the ktm50s mx or trail up until the 2013 model were equipped with a three shoe clutch controled by belvieu washers (cupped washers that serve as springs) or simple springs. no ramps

Yup, no CVTs there, but terribly maintenance intensive centrifugal cluches.. witch reminds me I got work to do.

[jasonu]

I agree, and as for the tune up goodies.

My thinking is that if the after market parts are marked, "For Racing Use Only" for marketing and legal reasons it does not nessacarily disqualify them.

Because if 95% of the components wind up in road going machines clearly the motivation for manufacturing the parts is to satisfy the customised road bike/scooter market and in reality they are just after market parts for the road that are good enough to be used in a race rig if you wanted to.

And its true TZ racing parts could be used in a RD road bike but that does not make them after market road bike parts because 95% or more of TZ parts were used in TZ road racers so clearly the motivation manufacturing those parts was to support racing competition.

Regardless of what the copy writers, legal beagles and add men say I think its the manufacturers target market that defines whether the part is an illegal race part or legal after market bling.

Anyway its a bit of a grey area and I will be interested in what others have to say.

If you allow some parts that are marketed as competition or race use but not others you are opening a huge can of worms. If, for any reason, a part is sold as a raceing part then it should be excluded with no questions asked.

[Grumph]

If you allow some parts that are marketed as competition or race use but not others you are opening a huge can of worms. If, for any reason, a part is sold as a raceing part then it should be excluded with no questions asked.

Lets clarify this a little - motor parts are free rein so long as you're fitting them to a road derived motor...transmission and gearbox parts from competition bikes or sold as competition parts are not legal.
Whether the Euro companies are saying "not for road use, competition parts" to cover their arses legally or not is irrelevant...if the package says competition part and it's for gearbox or transmission - not legal in this class.
As Frits says - make it yourself.

[kel]

If you allow some parts that are marketed as competition or race use but not others you are opening a huge can of worms. If, for any reason, a part is sold as a raceing part then it should be excluded with no questions asked.

"Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted"

Jasonu, I don't believe your interpretation stacks up with the rule as it written. In my view Its only when the specific wording "for competition use only" is applied to parts for NON COMPETITION ENGINES can these parts then be considered as "not permitted" (a lawyer would comfortably push it further). There are literally hundreds of aftermarket "race" parts for road going Aprilia 50's and the like. Generally the labelling is for marketing hype rather than application, the brand names Simonini Racing and Top Performance spring to mind.
There are numerous hot fifties being built at this time, I dont for one moment imagine they'll be running original cylinders, why would they?

[kel]

Whether the Euro companies are saying "not for road use, competition parts" to cover their arses legally or not is irrelevant...if the package says competition part and it's for gearbox or transmission - not legal in this class.

No, thats not how the rule is written either.

[Grumph]

"Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted"

There are numerous hot fifties being built at this time, I dont for one moment imagine they'll be running original cylinders, why would they?

Correct - and perfectly legal if the basis of the build is a non competition motor - but use a close ratio box marketed as a competition part for a race variant of that motor,and no, that's not legal....

some of you are apparently unable to read the rule as it is written.....