ESE's works engine tuner

[husaberg]

Somewhere there is an overlay of Mikes Vs Robs power curves 30hp
I don't know weather its still (true given the current state of RSW/RSA knowledge we now have access to.)
But i can remember Wob adding while the max HP will always be lower with a similarly developed reed valve vs a Disk valve the power spread will be better with a reed valve.(makes sense)
the problem Rob would have is the pesky reeds i guess would restrict his flow.(possibly more so with a 24mm carb.)
Wob mentioned the revs the honda 250 twin (which would mean a longer stroke than Robs) ran to and While speedpros stroke is shorter (48.5 or so?) i think rob may have more luck aiming for a higher level of revs. say 10000rpm power-peak.
you have a RGV rod and bearing i guess they are good for plenty of revs........

On a HRC - RS250 for example the solenoids are activated at 12200 to 12800 ( adjustable plugs in the loom) and it will rev hard to 14000.Without the powerjets it falls dead just past peak power at 12000.

Bottom line is that when tuned for max power the disc valve does make more than a reed - those flapper things are always "in the way" to some extent..
But there are many trade offs.The disc will have NO power at all under the tuned for range, as it cannot suppress reversion at low rpm, and you cannot tune out the fact that the intake waves are telling the main jet signal all manner of lies,repeatedly.
Thus a reed engine can have much wilder exhaust timing and pipe design without giving away a heap of "under the pipe" power, and this exhaust tuning can have plenty of overev power as well, if that's what is needed.
An example would be the pipes I did for the fastest,and record breaking Honda RS250 on the salt last year, it had over 90RWHp between 12000 and nearly 15000,so would simply keep revving till the aero drag stopped it.
The peak power was "only" 96 I think, but it had plenty everywhere else it was needed.
To get that sort of overev power from the RV would mean it would be all but impossible to get it to carburate off the pipe, as the closing timing needed to get to 15000 would be mentally wild ( like 98*+ ).
And the last thing to consider is that despite what the supremely clever Frits and Jan say and did - in the last year of 250GP a Honda reed valve engine kicked Aprillias arse in the title - with a guy who cant ride a MotoGP bike to save himself.
The newer RSA engine is probably an unbeatable combination in 125GP, but for many other less demanding applications the reed has real, and useable, advantages.

But what would i know....................
What ever hapened to the TS RGV motor Rob.

this i think was a Speedpro Motor?

oh maybe i was to hasty with Robs decision to maybe go back to unleaded.........

With today's technology the bar can now be raised to around 40 crank Hp without too much drama involved, and thus achieving around 35 RWHp.
Its just a matter of careful parts selection and very careful assembly.
AvGas in NZ is all LL100, this is low lead 100 octain.But the rating is defined differently in avaition.Its approx equiv to 100 "pump" gas, but has a lean rating of 100 and a rich rating of 130.
MNZ Appendix E defines avgas as max 112 MON amd max 108 RON.
Avgas, or any leaded "race" fuel reacts completely differently to unleaded pump gas.
In general terms the unleaded hates compression, but loves timing.Avgas is the opposite in that it makes more power up to the knock limit with more com.
Unleaded makes better power when run rich,avgas makes more the leaner you go.
Tuning in the old days with RS and TZ engines meant using lean mains and small powerjets ( 35 ) as turning off a big jet over the top would mean being too lean in the overev.
Nowdays the unleaded fuel runs rich at peak power, then uses a big powerjet ( 55) to create some heat in the pipe over the top.

[SS90]

I admire your enthusiasm and capacity for talking but I would be more impressed with a 6k wide power graph from a fixed pipe.

I would be impressed with ESE winning, and still stand behind the notion that from what I see, such an engine is not required to win.

Horses for courses I guess, but for me, the idea of racing is to win, not at all costs, but at least a chance makes it fun.

I have my opinion, and you have yours.

You are being beaten by mid 20 HP engines with big spreads and you could easily build an engine with better (at the very least comparable) power, and it would be less stressed than now to.

If you want to build a reliable high specific power engine, maybe a water cooled hundy is the best option, that would change the field again.

[TZ350]

I have my opinion ...

I am sorry to have to tell you, but it probably doesn't matter what your opinion is.

I have a development objective and if you want to, you can contribute to achieving that in a positive way with real information if you have it.

[cotswold]

I would be impressed with ESE winning, and still stand behind the notion that from what I see, such an engine is not required to win.

Horses for courses I guess, but for me, the idea of racing is to win, not at all costs, but at least a chance makes it fun.

I have my opinion, and you have yours.

You are being beaten by mid 20 HP engines with big spreads and you could easily build an engine with better (at the very least comparable) power, and it would be less stressed than now to.

If you want to build a reliable high specific power engine, maybe a water cooled hundy is the best option, that would change the field again.

To be fair to ESE the rider on the bike at present is over 50 and is riding it for fun as he knows he has to go to work monday morning, I am sure some young lad would be a lot faster.
Any positive input you can share with us would of course be gratefully received but until then STFU. just my opinion

[FastFred]

Having built and raced these engine for a few years now ...

So you keep telling us but from your recent conversation with Wax you displayed some alarming gaps in your knowledge regarding CVT's for someone who holds themselves out as an experienced Scooter tuner.

[Farmaken]

[QUOTE=TZ350;1130459015]I am sorry to have to tell you, but it probably doesn't matter what your opinion is.

That there is pure gold

[tdc211]

I have been following this thread. Here is my output shaft steel wheel dyno chart of my mx piped engine, a few ccs over 100.

[kel]

I have shown before you can achieve the power needed to beat 4T 150cc with conventional set up, and I would like to see ESE actually put up a fight on the track.

Did I miss something? I would have thought the ESE team and bike achieving 9 wins from 9 starts was a bit more than "actually put up a fight on the track", in my book the ESE team have already knocked out the opponents, TZ now wants to stick the boot in.

[TZ350]

I have been following this thread. Here is my output shaft steel wheel dyno chart of my mx piped engine, a few ccs over 100.

Interesting dyno graph, thanks for that......

[Yow Ling]

I have been following this thread. Here is my output shaft steel wheel dyno chart of my mx piped engine, a few ccs over 100.

Looks great, can you throw us a few more crumbs please mister?

[husaberg]

I have been following this thread. Here is my output shaft steel wheel dyno chart of my mx piped engine, a few ccs over 100.

Its does look impressive ,i too would like further information, how many is a few cc's.
You could be from Texas after-all.

[TZ350]

Ok all packed and on our way to Taumarunui.

[tdc211]

Its does look impressive ,i too would like further information, how many is a few cc's.
You could be from Texas after-all.

107cc's I guess that is more than a few. Maybe not all that impressive. But was built for MX.

[Bert]

I have been following this thread. Here is my output shaft steel wheel dyno chart of my mx piped engine, a few ccs over 100.

107cc's I guess that is more than a few. Maybe not all that impressive. But was built for MX.

Please tell us a little more. is that a big bore kitted CR85?

Maybe even a port map / listed durations might be interesting for some of us.

Nice work though ~300hp per litre.


Dredging up information:

Its the old story of simply moving the weakest link from one area within an engine to another.
Basic bearing operation dictates that full compliment needles will handle a heap of load, but are ultimately limited, in that the rollers are all rubbing on each other
and this leads to failure.They also cannot handle ANY movement away from dead true in any plane, as they then skid even more rapidly.
Having the big end well open with alot of clearance around the rod and cage helps access by the oil film and makes this area pretty bullet proof. with no washers in the way.
But this then moves the point of most wear up to the location washers in the piston.
In a KT100 the versions with alloy washers in the small end will have wear marks on these washers in a very short time, the small end being caged makes it bullet proof,and
the open rod big end lasts well, until the cage wears on the rod bore.
In the end it is the rod big end cage wear that forms the limiting factor, and it has been found by thousands of engine rebuilds, that the silver coated big end cage and washers have about the same ( acceptable ) limiting
lifespan - the open, caged small end lasts forever in either case.
Simply removing the washers is plain dumb - I have seen a couple of new crank designs done this way just recently, both failed very badly with lube failure around the rod big end - IT DOES NOT WORK, reliably.
Thus having the washers down the bottom becomes a known factor - replace them when you replace the cage.
The rod and pin will usually take around 4 bearing replacements.
Iin fact if you could buy them, simply replacing the cage ( with the washers as well ) would mean you could keep the rollers - for the life of the rod.

Wobby (or Frits): how many hours would you expect to get out of big end bearing (thus rod life as well) in a racing engine application?

I've been slowly formulating a replacement plan for different engine parts..

[husaberg]

A technical explanation? Nah, too much to do today. But since you were kind enough to post that picture of your sex six sisters, I will show some curves of my own.
When Jan Thiel went to Derbi to design the bike we now know as the Aprilia RSA125, he encountered the 125 cc reed valve Derbi ridden by Lorenzo the previous season. Jan played around with the reed valver as well, because he wanted to find out the differences between reed valve and disk valve power. He managed to extract 2 HP more from the reed valver than anyone else had ever done before (never mind the fairy tales of reed valve 125s producing over 50 HP; those Horses must have been Shetland ponies, probably measured at the piston ring).
My graph shows the power curve for the Aprilia RSA, the Aprilia RSW and that best-ever reed valve Derbi. It's not quite in the same league as the rotaries, hmm?

EDIT: Shame on me; I discovered that I posted a wrong graph (and I do not have the correct one at hand here in Holland). Power curve DERBILOR shows the reed valve Derbi as Lorenzo rode it. After Jan finished playing with it, it had 49 HP. Still, the best-ever disk valver produced 10 % more power than the best-ever reed valver.

Bottom line is that when tuned for max power the disc valve does make more than a reed - those flapper things are always "in the way" to some extent..
But there are many trade offs.The disc will have NO power at all under the tuned for range, as it cannot suppress reversion at low rpm, and you cannot tune out the fact that the intake waves are telling the main jet signal all manner of lies,repeatedly.
Thus a reed engine can have much wilder exhaust timing and pipe design without giving away a heap of "under the pipe" power, and this exhaust tuning can have plenty of overev power as well, if that's what is needed.
An example would be the pipes I did for the fastest,and record breaking Honda RS250 on the salt last year, it had over 90RWHp between 12000 and nearly 15000,so would simply keep revving till the aero drag stopped it.
The peak power was "only" 96 I think, but it had plenty everywhere else it was needed.
To get that sort of overev power from the RV would mean it would be all but impossible to get it to carburate off the pipe, as the closing timing needed to get to 15000 would be mentally wild ( like 98*+ ).
The newer RSA engine is probably an unbeatable combination in 125GP, but for many other less demanding applications the reed has real, and useable, advantages.

Frits re the dyno curve, do you have access to the updated one (after Jan had caressed the reed valver a bit more)
(i are also assuming the same exhaust was used) was it?or is it a overlay comparison of the final development of each minus Jan last mods to the reed valve Derbi.
i ask this aware that the RSA was developed initially at Derbi.
So if this is the case using Wobs explanation or a disk vs Reed does that mean that the reed valve Derbi could have been lifted maybe a little more to close the gap a little more with possibly a little more over-rev as well with more radical exhaust pipe and timing, or is it the very best that Jan could possibly do (within reason)with the Reed valve Derbi? (I ask this because you used the term Play) is the potential low drive-ability gains from a reed masked by the 9000rpm start because the curves are eerily similar?(other than the flatter peak of the Derbi reed) Granted a GP rider wouldn't use less than 9000rpm.

A more brutal/abrupt power delivery is something i have always noticed when riding Disk valve engines compared with similar power reed valve engines....

Lastly were you ever able to retrieve the SAE papers that Fleck submitted regarding Water injection?

sorry that is an awful lot of questions .