ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

I'm starting to come to the belief that the limiting factor in air cooled 125 development may be the ability of an iron linered barrel designed for a commuter bike to handle the heat rejection levels required for those power levels. A safe level may actually prove to be around 27 - 28 hp....unless you go to fan cooling....

Fan cooling, it must be a good thing when you look at how little fining those hotted up fan cooled scooters have.

This is how I am thinking of doing it, leaf blowers throw out quite a bit of air, and with a bit of ducting and with one each side of the cylinder should do it. They are not that heavy and there is quite a bit of space behind the engine where I could mount one or maybe two.

The rules talk about the bikes motor size and configuration but there is nothing I can see forbidding separately powered accessories or that the accessories like superchargers or electric power generators must be driven by the bikes own motor. If I was supercharging a bike I would be thinking about driving the supercharger by its own separate motor too.



These leaf blowers have 39cc 2-T engines and there are others with Lithium Iron batteries.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, whats the real reason twostrokes have been pushed out? I don't bother watching GP any more.
Same in MX, now same at trail rides, the twostroke is becoming an endangered species! All the young guys now only ride fourstroke and subsequently have no idea how the engines work because they just pay someone else to rebuild them, perhaps the rules should be that the rider must rebuild their own bikes. Soon twostrokes would be back. Where are we headed? Or am I just old and got my head stuck in the sand?

Politics.
Honda got fed up with being beaten by bikes from a little italian factory. Honda have sworn never to build two-strokes again. Honda has good contacts with GP-organizer Dorna.



The official reason was that 125 cc and 250 cc Aprilias were becoming too expensive. But what can you expect when no other manufacturer offers competitive bikes any more? As it turns out (and as everybody could have seen happening in MX a couple of years before) switching to four-strokes sent costs through the roof.

But there is hope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=99HRU7At8QA#

The video shows dutch KTM works rider and reigning world champion Jeffrey Herlings testing his 2014 bike: a 150 cc two-stroke with which he can compete in the 250 cc four-stroke class. He loved it!

[Frits Overmars]

I pipe my pressure reg to the chamber, just don't misfire! Just like in a car where the pressure reg is connected to the inlet manifold, which is influenced by the turbo exhaust pressure / load.

Turbo revs and inlet manifold pressure won't drop very much within one engine revolution. Pipe pressure can.
But you can dampen the effect by inserting a small orifice and a buffer volume (a long or wide hose) between pipe and pressure regulator.

[TZ350]

In fact by using a high volume leaf blower it might be possible to air cool a normally water cooled cylinder by passing a large volume of air through the water jacket space. The water jacket itself is a cooling surface that is also a duct around the cylinder.

I have some RGV250 cylinders and might give it a go.

[husaberg]

Fan cooling, it must be a good thing when you look at how little fining those hotted up fan cooled scooters have.

This is how I am thinking of doing it, leaf blowers throw out quite a bit of air, and with a bit of ducting and with one each side of the cylinder should do it. They are not that heavy and there is quite a bit of space behind the engine where I could mount one or maybe two.

The rules talk about the bikes motor size and configuration but there is nothing I can see forbidding separately powered accessories or that the accessories like superchargers or electric power generators must be driven by the bikes own motor. If I was supercharging a bike I would be thinking about driving the supercharger by its own separate motor too.



These leaf blowers have 39cc 2-T engines and there are others with Lithium Iron batteries.

I see no problems provided they meet the Cylinder capacity limits and the Carb reg's.
using the MNZ formula of bore and stokes X the total number of Cylinders............
You Might need to run a 47mm bore and a 20mm carb on the Gp motor though. The electy one seems to comply without such drastic measures
I do see an issue sneaking it under the noise regs they aren't that quiet are they.

Remember KISS........ you have a spinney thing to mount the Fan on to cool the motor, you might as well use it...

That's my two cents. Check out the attachment for how the airflow is directed and the louver exit above the spark plug......lots of R&D time spent there

[Frits Overmars]

In fact by using a high volume leaf blower it might be possible to air cool a normally water cooled cylinder by passing a large volume of air through the water jacket space.

Do the math: what is the mass of air that you will have to chase through the cylinder in order to get the same amount of cooling you get with water? What is the volume of that air mass? What flow velocity will this volume flow require? (don't bother with meters per second; Mach numbers will tell you enough).

[Frits Overmars]

Fan cooling, it must be a good thing when you look at how little fining those hotted up fan cooled scooters have.

Fan cooling is a good thing for 5 HP scooters moving in 5 km/h traffic. We used to have a 50 cc air-cooled scooter racing class in Holland; plastic fans sometimes exploded above 12,000 rpm....

[TZ350]

Do the math: what is the mass of air that you will have to chase through the cylinder in order to get the same amount of cooling you get with water?.

Kg for Kg I need 4 times as much air.

From my rough estimate for my cylinder it looks like 1m3 of air a second for a 30 deg delta t.

A leaf blower might put out that much volume chasing leaves but could it force 1m3 a second through a cylinders water jacket.

[TZ350]

I see no problems provided they meet the Cylinder capacity limits and the Carb reg's. using the MNZ formula of bore and stokes X the total number of Cylinders.........

I thought the MNZ regs only applied to the bikes motor, must have missed the bit where it said accessories too.

[husaberg]

I thought the MNZ regs only applied to the bikes motor, must have missed the bit where it said accessories too.

It doesn't mention auxilary engines powering leaf blowers. (Which is odd) but it does say total engine capacity or words to that effect. (in the technical section)
You could ask for clarification, but bucket are self policing arn't they.

[chrisc]

[Yow Ling]

Fan cooling, it must be a good thing when you look at how little fining those hotted up fan cooled scooters have.

This is how I am thinking of doing it, leaf blowers throw out quite a bit of air, and with a bit of ducting and with one each side of the cylinder should do it. They are not that heavy and there is quite a bit of space behind the engine where I could mount one or maybe two.

The rules talk about the bikes motor size and configuration but there is nothing I can see forbidding separately powered accessories or that the accessories like superchargers or electric power generators must be driven by the bikes own motor. If I was supercharging a bike I would be thinking about driving the supercharger by its own separate motor too.



These leaf blowers have 39cc 2-T engines and there are others with Lithium Iron batteries.

I think if you want to use battery powered accessories thats fine, however when you cross the line to internal combustion engine powered accessories I think that the engine capacity rules

Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc

would need to be taken into account, if you used a 39cc engine to power the fan then you would need to subtract 39cc from the prime mover, because in normal circumstances the fan would be absorbing power from the std engines crankshaft, also as Husaberg says you would need to take into account the carburation equivelent of the blower motors carb

24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor


Seems the rules could work as intended, so if you wanted to use a 39cc blower , you would be at 86cc with a carb restriction , might as well run 103cc with water cooling and unlimited carb and no weight penalty

[Flettner]

Chrisc, just more proof cylinder / transfer EFI works.

[TZ350]

Fan cooling, it must be a good thing when you look at how little fining those hotted up fan cooled scooters have.

This is how I am thinking of doing it, leaf blowers throw out quite a bit of air, and with a bit of ducting should do it.

The rules talk about the bikes motor size and configuration but there is nothing I can see forbidding separately powered accessories.



These leaf blowers have 39cc 2-T engines and there are others with Lithium Iron batteries.

I see no problems provided they meet the Cylinder capacity limits and the Carb reg's.

I think if you want to use battery powered accessories that's fine, however when you cross the line to internal combustion engine powered accessories I think that the engine capacity rules would need to be taken into account.

So a battery powered accessory like a water pump is ok but one driven by a model airplane motor would need to have its capacity included as part of the Bikes engine.

Buckets is pretty open as far as novel ideas go, so I think its wrong that a battery motor is OK but model airplane motor is not without including it with the bikes engine. Buckets is about imagination and building hp using innovative solutions, to do this the rules were simple and left as much as possible open.

If battery accessory motors are ok, then I think so should any other means of driving accessories be treated like battery motors and ok too.

I think the engine capacity rule only applys to the engine that moves the bike. I will see if we can get some clarification.

[Buckets4Me]

So a battery powered accessory like a water pump is ok but one driven by a model airplane motor would need to have its capacity included as part of the Bikes engine.

Buckets is pretty open as far as novel ideas go, so I think its wrong that a battery motor is OK but model airplane motor is not without including it with the bikes engine. Buckets is about imagination and building hp using innovative solutions, to do this the rules were simple and left as much as possible open.

If battery accessory motors are ok, then so should any other means of driving accessories be too.

I think the engine capacity rule only applys to the engine that moves the bike. Lets see if we can get some clarification.

how about an electric motor for powering the bike no carb no cc limit
and no racing parts