ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

Rather than stuff around with other ignitions, just buy an ignitech. I bought one for my CB a month ago and they are brilliant. Cost me $350 and it was worth every penny. Plugged straight into the CB loom and have gone to total loss now too. Just need to optimise the curve. I think I need a dyno for that though.

I had a look and they are good looking units. They only need a battery and trigger.

Ignitech ignitions:- http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm

.

[k14]

I had a look and they are good looking units. They only need a battery and trigger.

Ignitech ignitions:- http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm

.

Yeah I was slighly apprenhensive due to the fact they were from so far away (Cheq Republic) and not renowned for their electrical engineering prowess, but haven't had one problem with it. You need a bit of mechanical/electrical knowledge to setup but the documentation is great and its quite straight forward. Only problem is their english isn't spectacular so if you have some questions it may be hard to get an answer.

[TZ350]

Personally, I find the somewhat messier (but easier to read) method of starting with an old set of cases (crank as well) and adapting a inlet from a garden hose along with compressed air (via a sensitive pressure regulator).

I am of the opinion that since you have the dish in your piston, you should create a pattern that utilises that to your advantage (as far as the rear boost port is concerned)

BUT, you must make a clear cylinder head to the same specs as your alumnium one,(then spend the afternoon polishing it so you can see through it, because don't forget, your cylinder head is part of the system.....you can't get a good idea of your scavenge pattern with a flat dish!

One word of advise, to save time, when you change angles (particularly on the boost port/secondary transfer area), use a "hot melt glue gun" as a filler material, just before it cools, using a surgeons rubber glove, with you finger dipped in water/dishwashing liquid smooth it out to somewhere near the angle you want. You can change the angle to where you need by using a flat skinny blade slightly heated.

It really quick, cheap, and no problem if you stuff it up.

When you get what you want, you can later replicate it with a good quality devcon filler.

Interesting posts, good read and info. First step is to make a clear cylinder head.

.

[TZ350]

Yes I've had different settings with different heads when trying out things (often with no appreciable change in performance, sometimes with).

The difference in ignition timing between 16 and 26 degrees on the ESE engines seems huge but the power difference was small only a HP and a bit, about 10% at best.

Actually 10% is quit a bit I suppose.

.

[SS90]

The difference in ignition timing between 16 and 26 degrees on the ESE engines seems huge but the power difference was small only a HP and a bit, about 10% at best.

Actually 10% is quit a bit I suppose.

.

I have been working with my own ignition since November last year, and found the results/power gains to be quite varied.

I was told previously that if I took an existing "well tuned engine" (say, 24PS or more) and simply fitted an ignition with (for example 8 deg retard) I would get .0001 PS gain. (peak power)

i.e peak power won't increase

That turned out to be quite correct.

What is noticable though is a substantual gain in acceleration from idle up to about 3000RPM (more "bottom end")

Like you have noted, different combustion chambers require different ignition amounts of retard, and there is an element of "suck it and see"

The big advantages (I have found) is drastic reductions in cylinder head temperature.

For example, on a slightly modified cast iron cylinder, at 8000RPM (which is quite high for a road scooter) my current ignition design runs at from 25 deg at idle down to 7Deg BDC at 8000RPM), and works well.

This "test engine" is only a standard 75cc cast iron cylinder with standard head etc, and no expansion chamber.

[youtube]N4cQIKUxxsE[/youtube]

[TZ350]

.

i.e peak power won't increase

That turned out to be quite correct.

What is noticable though is a substantual gain in acceleration from idle up to about 3000RPM (more "bottom end")

That makes sense, if the static timing was set for peak power then a retarding ignition that retards back to the same point as the original static timing would produce the same peak power.

I had a look at the video, very interesting, better bottom end drive, now thats very interesting. I am not sure how much retard (maybe 15 degrees) I will have. So the plan is to start at about 30 or so and let it retard back to 15/17 as the rev's hit peak torqe. Setting up and checking the torque gain/loss should be quick and easy using a dyno.

.

[SS90]

.

I had a look at the video, very interesting, better bottom end drive, now thats very interesting. I am not sure how much retard (maybe 15 degrees) I will have. So the plan is to start at about 30 and let it retard back to 15 as it hits peak torqe.

.

The amount you need seem to vary drastically from engine to engine. (Cylinder head design, exhaust etc)

I can't remember where I found the attached file, but it is a good example of what is considered a "basic curve"

From memory it was using a CR125 (I think)

Personally I have found that, with a good expansion chamber (and suitable head) around 8 deg before TDC at 8000 RPM seems to work,

for anything higher revving, it would be suitable to advance back to 12deg (or so), then back down to (perhaps) TDC firing at 13,000RPM (or even a few deg after TDC) which will give more over rev, but all that is only applicable to "high end stuff"

AG Bell wrote a good book on ignition curves.

[TZ350]

Thanks for the look at the curves.

I will have to live with whatever the RM curve is in my new ignition but I have been working on my own programable (Jaycar kit) ignition and will be able to change/adjust the curve in that when I get it working.

.

[TZ350]

.

This http://www.geocities.com/a57ngel/moto/CDI.html talks about repairing/modifying a KDX CDI's retard curve, there is also a schematic.

.

[SS90]

Interesting what they end up with as far as curve goes....not too far removed from what I found to be a gain.

At home I have a print out of a map curve of the final set up, I will post that when I get home as a matter of interest.

[SS90]

While this certainly isn't for "high end" performance tuning, this graph represents what I run on a cast iron cylinder that runs up to around 8,000 RPM (which is in reality what most customers need)

It isn't really suitable for an engine that runs to say 10,000 or over, but in reality I don't know of a customer who needs that.

For racing use I have another system that retards from 25 deg idle to 17 deg (and remains there until 12,000)

Strangely, while I expected the second "racing" curve to allow the engine to run cooler (passing the heat on to the pipe), I found the opposite to be true, and while it certainly allowed the engine to over-rev more, I found the cylinder head temperature increased dramatically, which was quite a surprise really, lowering the compression a tad and jetting up solved the problem, and it does make more power (now), but, it was a surprise too see.

It was this experience that the above curve was "found"

Speaking to others here, they had found the same problem.

with a retarding ignition, set up certainly appears to be critical.


I don't recommend the above curve for your engine Teezee, but my experience suggests that retarding from 30 to 17 deg (or thereabouts) is about right for an engine revving harder (above 7,000 RPM)

[ajturbo]

so where is all this leading?

a fire breathing 50cc bucket for sale in NZ?











as usual, i have added volumes of interesting facts for you guys to debate

[TZ350]

Speaking to others here, they had found the same problem.

with a retarding ignition, set up certainly appears to be critical.

I don't recommend the above curve for your engine Teezee, but my experience suggests that retarding from 30 to 17 deg (or thereabouts) is about right for an engine revving harder (above 7,000 RPM)

Thank you for your information. My plan had been to retard more than 17 in fact to about 5 at 11,000. You have given me more to think about. I hope to get to the dyno this week and try the RM125 ignition. I have no idea of its curve but have to start experimenting some where.

I have not made any changes to the bike since it was on the dyno at Johns. Because I want to get a good base line printout with torque/revs from the dyno at Henderson before trying new mods.

As several bikes will be going over I should have time to do a base run then fit the ignition and do a little experimenting after the others have done their runs.

I don't have a nice degree wheel setup like yours and my strobe is not that great at triggering of CDI's either. So a couple of other small w/shop things to fix as well.

But I do have a very good copper head to use if things get too hot though.

.

[TZ350]

Thank you for your input AJ.

.

[TZ350]

.

"so where is all this leading? a fire breathing 50cc bucket?"

Well you never know AJ, just you wait untill Taupo.

Hopefully there will be three of them if not four from team ESE.

.