ESE's works engine tuner

**SS90** · 3rd August 2009, 09:19

Originally Posted by TZ350

My plan had been to retard more than 17 in fact to about 5 at 11,000.

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That's not too far wrong in my opinion. I have seen dozens of different curves from different manufacturers the last year (original and aftermarket) and read a few (conflicting) claims/statements as well.

It does seem that those sort of numbers you are talking are reasonable, but from my experience the suitable curve is very dependent on the cylinder head/ expansion chamber design.

By that I mean, "one curve is certainly not for all"

I'm guessing you are aware of that.

I have mentioned earlier in this thread, but I feel it is important to remind you that when it comes to selecting the correct curve for your engine, it is (all too easy) to go too retarded right at the top end.

This does give you more overrev, but also has the effect of " locally super heating" the piston crown on the exhaust side, and eroding the crown away on that edge.

The effect is the same as too advanced timing, but the cause is somewhat different.

My experience with this is from a VERY VERY wide exhaust port (bridged), and I guess with your unbridged exhaust it's not so much of a concern, as the flame front is considerably smaller with a narrower exhaust port.

The best tools are the cheapest an EGT sensor and an under plug head temp sensor form a Kartsport shop can give you so much information.

AG Bell wrote a book on ignitions, and he suggested a few curves that are interesting, I am unsure if you can find it on the net, but it may give you some ideas that I missed.

**TZ350** · 3rd August 2009, 10:09

Haven't found Bell yet but came across this on ignitions. yes its cars and 4-stroke but informative nevertheless.

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost...ion_deeper.htm

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**TZ350** · 3rd August 2009, 10:23

Originally Posted by SS90

The best tools are the cheapest an EGT sensor and an under plug head temp sensor form a Kartsport shop can give you so much information.

We have been having some success with developing a data logging system for our buckets. We use a new to the market Track Day system http://www.xtracing.com/en/gpxpro/features.php and have made a small instrumentation interface so we can log CHT and EGT temperatures.

The GPX can be wired into the existing wiring of a track day or road bike but for an outright racer with little more than a magneto ignition the GPX neads some interfacing system to pickup revs, temps etc.

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**Chambers** · 6th August 2009, 19:35

Latest addition to Team ESE's stable of bikes. A 9Hp 3.81ft/lb RG50.

Brought of Trademe, the bike looks very competently put together. The story has it that some girl who was very keen on Buckets, raced this bike about 6-8 years ago then moved to Australia leaving it behind in some shop at Tirau. It was obviously very well cared for.

Pumped up the tyres, changed the oil and water, cleaned the carb, fresh fuel a little push and ZOooooooom ZOooooooom.

Over to the dyno.......9hp and Bob's your uncle.

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**Buckets4Me** · 6th August 2009, 19:43

is that all you did today ?????

**TZ350** · 6th August 2009, 20:56

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Headed over to the dyno today, turns out that Chambers has got himself a real neat little 9hp RG50 for F5.

And I managed to get a good baseline run on my GP125. I had not changed anything since the first lot of dyno runs we did at Johns where we only got Hp vs Road Speed. Now I have a proper hp/revs and torqe curve printout.

My base line is 20.6hp at 11,000rpm and 10.3ft/lb with a long flat torque curve.

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**TZ350** · 6th August 2009, 21:01

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Ned Kelly did not have such a good day.

Pic-1 Ned Kellys 16rwhp Easter dyno run which falls off badly compared to Chambers Pic-2.

Pic-2 Chambers 18rwhp Easter Dyno run, motor, chamber, ignition timing essentially the same as Ned Kellys.

We surmised that Ned Kellys was over compressed compared to Chambers engine and this was causing the flattening of the torque curve at higher revs.

Pic-3 Top line is with the compression reduced, a loss of 0.5 hp compared to Easter. Next we surmised that the ignition might be over advanced so we knocked it back to 20 degrees, second line.

Chambers has a fixed point ignition and now we are thinking that the Kawasaki Motor Cross ignition unit that Ned Kelly has goes into heavy retard over 8,000 rpm. But we are handycaped by having a timing light that can't be used over 6,000 rpm so we realy don't know how any of the ignitions are behaving when they are "On the Pipe", at 8,000rpm or more.

Ned Kellys engine runs real hot compaired to Chambers and mine runs realy cool with the head, measured after the third 20hp run and as close to the plug as possible at 50-60 degrees and deep in the barrel between the top two fins at 70 degrees. So I have plenty of cooling capacity left.

The bright spot for Ned Kelly was the realisation that he has been peddling a bike down on power (15-16rwhp) and keeping up with the fast boys. So his riding is pretty good.

Pic-4 My 20rwhp base line run. Now I can get on with my planed mods and exploring those suggested by SS90, Thomas and the others on this thread.

Many thanks to Gavin at Henderson Yamaha for his expert handling of the dyno.

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**Chambers** · 6th August 2009, 21:57

Have noticed TZed 20.66 RWHP @ 10.34 Max Torque, Chambers 18.63 RWHP @ 10.44 Max Torque slightly more torque and 2 hp down.
Yeah I would be happy in Ned Kellys shoes he has the handling and will get the HP Im sure the ignition is the problem, Ive got everything crossed that I can get around the corners at more than walking pace with the work done on the front end, still not sure about the back. Go the RG top buy

**SS90** · 7th August 2009, 08:16

I recon Chambers engine could be the go, if he can keep that same curve shape and just gain 2 HP I am of the opinion it would be on of the most rideable (High powered) buckets around..... maybe even leave the engine alone and just change the pipe and ignition?

My experience is that it's quite hard to get a nice long spread of peak power like that.

Also, just looking at the roughness of your curve (for the RG fiddy), there is a good chance that your chain is either too tight or knackered, might be worth a look!

**TZ350** · 8th August 2009, 12:51

Originally Posted by SS90

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Also, just looking at the roughness of your curve (for the RG fiddy), there is a good chance that your chain is either too tight or knackered, might be worth a look!

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Thanks for the tip, checked it this morning but all Ok. The bike is in pretty good condition.

It was just a quick once over on the dyno we didn't want to change the wheel base setup as we were in the middle of working on the 125's and I don't think the RG50's back wheel was sitting in an ideal position on the roller as it is just a bit shorter in the wheel base. I thought it might have been just trying to climb to the top of the roller, it was bouncing a bit and pulling on the tie downs.

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**Anakist** · 8th August 2009, 22:04

Hey guys,

Just read the entire thread. Wow what a lot of info. TZ350: There is a lot of information about the heat dissipation of various materials used in computer heat sinks (full aluminium, aluminium with a copper slug, full copper etc), around. Here is a start. http://www.heatsink-guide.com/

The prevailing wisdom is copper is very good at absorbing and dissapating the heat (through the whole heatsink), but not so good at shedding it to the air; Aluminium is much better at shedding it to the air, but not as good at absorbing and dissipating it. Hence the move to copper slugs (contacting the heat source) pressed (IIRC) into aluminium coolers.

We have since moved to heat pipe coolers, but the still use copper bases and pipes, and aluminium fins. This is all done with low pressure, high velocity air.

James

**F5 Dave** · 9th August 2009, 10:48

With the 50 on typical Dynojet you need to make some sort of spacer, few blocks of wood in a pinch. That is revving pretty high, the crank may(will) not last if you under gear it & let it spin out there too long.

**TZ350** · 10th August 2009, 16:08

Practice on Saturday. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dty1/se...7621987309122/

Racing from Sunday. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dty1/se...7621989269542/

Other Motorcycle Racing pictures from Damion. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dty1/co...7600077237955/
There is no copyright and they can all be downloded.

Team ESE's No 14 (TZzz GP125) riden by Dave M went like a cut cat and was possibly the fastest bike in a straight line. Dave M rode like a demon but the handling and power delivery made it very hard work for him. The fields were dominated by 4-strokes, mostly FXR's and CB125T's with their broad power bands and easy drive out of the corners but Dave M pretty much dealt to them. It wasn't pretty but his style sure was effective (and brave).

But like SS90 says, its time to develop a broader power delivery like Chambers has. Now that I have my base line dyno run I can get into it. And it looks like I need to do some serious work on the suspension too.

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