ESE's works engine tuner

[husaberg]

Fukui-san went on to run the NR750 endurance racer project and eventualy became CEO of Honda( very odd by western standards to have a CEO that has the slightest idea of technical aspects of the products that company makes) he was in charge when the GFC hit and F1 program was culled but MotoGP stayed on, would like to think that was because he was a 'bike bloke'

Or the salesmen. Sorry one of those days.

Anyway some pics of the RS500 Honda one of the cleverestly simple engines ever made....
Not sure what the Top Chassis is but i like it.
People often over look that before Yamaha made the engines in near works spec available for ROC and Harris.
Honda sold the NS500
These bikes other than less Mag and CF and about 5 less HP Were virtual works Replica's.

I was kind of hoping Wob would have chipped in by now with the firing order and crank design of the BSL i guess it was much more MVX250 than RS500 only balanced with the crankshaft rather than the pistons?

[SwePatrick]

*drooool*

however, this leads me to a question.
This picture:


It´s a cutaway in the pistonskirt.
Have anyone tested and documented any gain/losses with this?

I´m about to test it on my little honda projekt.

And by the way, that reedvalve that you posted Wobbly..
that one really kicks ass. i made a copy and slotted in this one instead of my v-force 2.
And,, goddamn!!! no dyno yet.
but with superlative: GODDAMN v-force can just stay in the shelf!!! nice to look at,, but no more.
I asked earlier about pipe pressure, and now with this reed the engine is totally insane.
Pipe pressure went up from 0.2bar to 0.45-0.5bar, no good ofcourse.
But it must mean the engine produces more exhaustmass = power!
I will dyno as soon as i sorted the carb problem i´m fighting at the point.
It sucks the floatbowl dry *lol*, never done this before.
I´ve got an Mikuni TMXX carb 39.5mm(bored out 38mm) and those are sensitive with floater height.
So i have ordered a Keihin PWM40 with powerjet.

Now when that is sorted i will sort out the pipe pressure and then dyno again.

Thanks Wobbly, really Thanks sincerely(spelling)

Best regards
Patrick
Sweden.

[10bikekid]

I shouldn't post this here for fear of being burnt at the stake.But geeze i never knew that Honda managed to squeeze so much at their first attempt.

Also added the Fuel injection stuff, as it looks like Dave could have been right. (about the DI ban) although i think it may have actually been a fuel pressure above 10 bar ban. (Plus he was wrong about most everything else)

Remember reading that someone (maybe Fast Freddie) said the Honda 250 turbo was near unridable as it had ziltch low end and then a mad top end rush (coming from Fredie that would have been high praise)

[wobbly]

I didnt know you wanted me to tell re balance and firing pattern of the BSL.
A young engineer Simon Longdill working with me on the project wrote a balance program for his BE thesis and we tried every variation known to man.
One night I dreamed wierdly that maybe we should try firing two cylinders together.
We tried the middle and RH cylinder and middle running as a concurrent twin, with the 120* cylinder angle and firing the LH cylinder 120* later.
Making in effect a big bang firing order.
Each cylinder was balanced at 58% and a balance shaft ran across the back from a gear between the mid and RH pair, this then drove the clutch.
This setup of course makes it run "backwards" and we spent alot of time analysing the effects of gyro precession on the handling.
The two cylinders firing together gave perfect primary balance with only constant eccentric loads on the roller mains, that of course they are well designed for.
This layout resulted in a vibration free tripple, but the torsional crank harmonics caused endless issues with breaking off the integral big end pins.
Big radi and shot peening didnt fix the problem,but it was finally solved in the short term by boring the wheels and using a normal press fit on both sides.
It really needed a case redesign and 5mm added to the 3 wheels that would have made no difference to anything with a slightly wider engine.
At the time I was obsessed with the narrowest and shortest package possible - a good design approach, but flawed in the final execution.

[husaberg]

I didnt know you wanted me to tell re balance and firing pattern of the BSL.
A young engineer Simon Longdill working with me on the project wrote a balance program for his BE thesis and we tried every variation known to man.
One night I dreamed wierdly that maybe we should try firing two cylinders together.
We tried the middle and RH cylinder and middle running as a concurrent twin, with the 120* cylinder angle and firing the LH cylinder 120* later.
Making in effect a big bang firing order.
Each cylinder was balanced at 58% and a balance shaft ran across the back from a gear between the mid and RH pair, this then drove the clutch.
This setup of course makes it run "backwards" and we spent alot of time analysing the effects of gyro precession on the handling.
The two cylinders firing together gave perfect primary balance with only constant eccentric loads on the roller mains, that of course they are well designed for.
This layout resulted in a vibration free tripple, but the torsional crank harmonics caused endless issues with breaking off the integral big end pins.
Big radi and shot peening didnt fix the problem,but it was finally solved in the short term by boring the wheels and using a normal press fit on both sides.
It really needed a case redesign and 5mm added to the 3 wheels that would have made no difference to anything with a slightly wider engine.
At the time I was obsessed with the narrowest and shortest package possible - a good design approach, but flawed in the final execution.

Thanks when I got to thinking when I read this recently (including esp the bit i already posted), the other day and i assume the NS400 was the same set up as well.
Its a shame Honda never realised what they were potentially onto, (with the set up on the MVX.)
just maybe, they should have balanced it with the crankweight's (as Greg said) rather than the piston pin. and it could have been even smoother and even easier on tyres, which was its advantage rather than weight.
I say this as I read somewhere else as well they would have kept developing the RS500/NS500 but were concerned about the vibration had already made the chassis heavier to cope with vibes and hadn't fully developed the engine further because of it.

*Please Note the cankseals on the DKW3

[F5 Dave]

And because they couldn't help themselves, more power is always better, cue a V4 & find riders that don't bitch too much that it doesn't go around corners (Lawson was a bad choice there).

[wobbly]

A good story to relate was when the BSL was first started at Philip Island.
We opened the pit door to find about 100 people waiting to see it.
It was started and I was hanging onto the throttle , blipping it to warm up.
King Kenny strode forward with his Team Roberts entourage in tow.He grabbed hold of the foot peg as i gave it a good rev.
Turning around to the team he said real loud, as he does " these cunts know more about engine balance than any of you fuckers " patted me on the back
with a wink and walked away.
Later in their pit I got to do the same thing - and it was scary how much the buzzing vibration actually hurt your hand.
Yes - I did ask for a job, but they had already contracted the NS500 designer to draw a new engine.

[Grumph]

A good story to relate was when the BSL was first started at Philip Island.
We opened the pit door to find about 100 people waiting to see it.
It was started and I was hanging onto the throttle , blipping it to warm up.
King Kenny strode forward with his Team Roberts entourage in tow.He grabbed hold of the foot peg as i gave it a good rev.
Turning around to the team he said real loud, as he does " these cunts know more about engine balance than any of you fuckers " patted me on the back
with a wink and walked away.
Later in their pit I got to do the same thing - and it was scary how much the buzzing vibration actually hurt your hand.
Yes - I did ask for a job, but they had already contracted the NS500 designer to draw a new engine.

If you were doing a similar triple now, we could assume injection would be an integral part of the package....This would let you close up the Vee angle as there's less to accomodate in there. Maybe cut it down to 90 degrees - which brings good things like no balance shaft and much easier primary balance...

Guzzi got around a 120 degree twin by having both cylinders reach TDC at the same time with offset pins. That balances up much more like a flat twin. Pretty smooth reportedly.

[F5 Dave]

Carb boring
Ok throwing this out to the panel: Maybe carbs are boring with all this FI talk, but here's my quandary; My planned move to the Solenoid PWK has fallen foul of a large stout bit of ally in the way (the RS frame). So my next plan is to retrofit a solenoid PJ to my downdraft RGV carb. In the process I was keen to go bigger.


it appears the VJ21 & 22 carb bodies are the same just bored bigger. Indeed I've seen RG150 carbs are the same body offset a crazy amount to 26mm. The slide lends itself to this modular approach.

So on the face of it it looks like I could offset bore the 32mm carb to 34mm & end up with a central bore as it it were made that way. I've read about people taking them out to 35.8 so another tickle to 35mm would seem attractive. As luck has it I have a spare carb body missing floats/bowl etc.

But the question really revolves around the emulsion tube shroud that would obviously get taken out in the process.

Unlike the old days, the emulsion tube does not have this shroud (and the screw in design & size makes it infeasible), it is incorporated in ally carb floor & quite large. I'm scared of making one & gluing it in place as it it became detached it would enter the engine. It is hard to machine a decent 'key' for it to wedge into.

[richban]

Carb boring
Ok throwing this out to the panel: Maybe carbs are boring with all this FI talk, but here's my quandary; My planned move to the Solenoid PWK has fallen foul of a large stout bit of ally in the way (the RS frame). So my next plan is to retrofit a solenoid PJ to my downdraft RGV carb. In the process I was keen to go bigger.


it appears the VJ21 & 22 carb bodies are the same just bored bigger. Indeed I've seen RG150 carbs are the same body offset a crazy amount to 26mm. The slide lends itself to this modular approach.

So on the face of it it looks like I could offset bore the 32mm carb to 34mm & end up with a central bore as it it were made that way. I've read about people taking them out to 35.8 so another tickle to 35mm would seem attractive. As luck has it I have a spare carb body missing floats/bowl etc.

But the question really revolves around the emulsion tube shroud that would obviously get taken out in the process.

Unlike the old days, the emulsion tube does not have this shroud (and the screw in design & size makes it infeasible), it is incorporated in ally carb floor & quite large. I'm scared of making one & gluing it in place as it it became detached it would enter the engine. It is hard to machine a decent 'key' for it to wedge into.

I asked the same question about my 30mm Japanese import rgv carbs of my bro. 32H 28W. He suggested a D shape dia grinder mission. In the end I just brought some 34's of ebay for 90 squid. Problem solved, for now. But really after seeing your bike run the other day you should leave it the hell alone till well after our little trip down south. After that happy to lend you a 34 for testing.

[speedpro]

Give it to Glen and have him run a slot drill or whatever around the throat but staying away from the base. You could even square it up a bit by removing the top corners a bit making the throat more of an oblong shape, with rounded corners. Probably a good reason flow wise for not doing that but it would be interesting and you could jam it on a flow bench afterwards.

[Gigglebutton]

Rob at ESE made a holder for his lathe to offset bore his carbs. The Lectron carb I use on the FXR has 2mm of taper and I think there high verbosity carbs have more taper .

[richban]

Give it to Glen and have him run a slot drill or whatever around the throat but staying away from the base. You could even square it up a bit by removing the top corners a bit making the throat more of an oblong shape, with rounded corners. Probably a good reason flow wise for not doing that but it would be interesting and you could jam it on a flow bench afterwards.

Way back when messing with a shithouse TM28 we tried adding more area with grinding out the top section of the throat. It did add more CFM on the flow bench but no where near the amount a 32mm pwk did. And the 32 fuelled better at half throttle. This in turn started my hatred towards mukuni carbs.

[F5 Dave]

I'm not keen on them, but kinda stuck for space

[ac3_snow]

This in turn started my hatred towards mukuni carbs.

Hmmm, between this, and hearing about the ease of mixture adjustment on the kart carburetors... I am beginning to think the flatslide mikuni I have sitting in the lounge isn't so flash after all.