ESE's works engine tuner

[F5 Dave]

2000more rpm and a pipe matched to the porting and that would fair stonk. Just the piston would possibly limit at those revs

[TZ350]

There is the Southward car musem and its collection of motorcycles. http://www.southwardcarmuseum.co.nz/gallery.html

Attachment 283657

A real air cooled 2-Stroke, Geff Perrys TR500R and Trophies

Attachment 283653

And Ron Grants water cooled TR750R

Work had me in Greymouth. While I was there I meet Robin Gray and he showed me around his Hose and Hydralic stor which is also an Aladins cave of interesting bikes and things. With lots of interesting old bits and bobs like miners helmets, lamps, hand made model trains and steam engines and an old BSA in the window.

Attachment 264346

Another one of those fantastic stores:-

This Hardware Store in Invercargil is a real gem, its a real hardware store with a fantastic collection of bikes and Burt Munro Indian memorabilia.

E Hayes ltd http://www.ehayes.co.nz/Hayes-Motorw...ection-__I.214

[husaberg]

Another one of those fantastic stores:-

This Hardware Store in Invercargil is a real gem, its a real hardware store with a fantastic collection of bikes and Burt Munro Indian memorabilia.

E Hayes ltd http://www.ehayes.co.nz/Hayes-Motorw...ection-__I.214

including Burts Velo, coincidentally "The worlds fastest Velocette"

[Ocean1]

including Burts Velo, coincidentally "The worlds fastest Velocette"

... and an engine that some here would recognise as the absolute pinnacle of their art...

[ellipsis]

...merry chrysalis you lot...love ya work...

[TZ350]

Tried some original Ecotrons fuel injectors yesterday. Its all a bit tight so I had to make a new setup for them and cut the plastic away from around the top feed so that the plug and fuel barb could be rotated in different directions.

Unfortunately nothing improved, the engine still behaves badly at the swap over point around 8,000 rpm. 8,000rpm is of course 16,000 4T rpm. On the test bench and oscilloscope everything looks to be working OK so I am not sure if its a software problem or the injectors just can't keep up.

For Xmas I was given a complete set of top feed Alpha Sud fuel rails, regulators and 14mm injectors. This one has the injectors retained in the fuel rail by a clip so I can easily make a test rig and plug in my Pico IWP injectors.

I will now be able to study and measure the fuel delivery behavior of the injectors under real conditions and see whats happening at the point where the EFI system swaps from injector 1 to injector 2.

I am off to find SAE standard J1832 to see what it has to say about evaluating low pressure automotive fuel injectors.

[mr bucketracer]

Tried some original Ecotrons fuel injectors yesterday. Its all a bit tight so I had to make a new setup for them and cut the plastic away from around the top feed so that the plug and fuel barb could be rotated in different directions.

Unfortunately nothing improved, the engine still behaves badly at the swap over point around 8,000 rpm. 8,000rpm is of course 16,000 4T rpm. On the test bench and oscilloscope everything looks to be working OK so I am not sure if its a software problem or the injectors just can't keep up.

For Xmas I was given a complete set of top feed Alpha Sud fuel rails, regulators and 14mm injectors. This one has the injectors retained in the fuel rail by a clip so I can easily make a test rig and plug in my Pico IWP injectors.

I will now be able to study and measure the fuel delivery behavior of the injectors under real conditions and see whats happening at the point where the EFI system swaps from injector 1 to injector 2.

I am off to find SAE standard J1832 to see what it has to say about evaluating low pressure automotive fuel injectors.

just go simple, 1 injector at the body good fuel mixing, well thats what i would do

[mr bucketracer]

second thing run a extra butterfly and servo operate it .. run it as a overide

[TZ350]

just go simple, 1 injector at the body good fuel mixing, well thats what i would do

Sensible, and works for a 4T but the problem I face with my 2T is that an injector small enough for starting and clean running at low rpm is to small when the engine gets on the pipe so you have to have two different sized injectors and swap between them for high and low speed running.

I think my real problem is in finding injectors dynamic enough to handle what would be 28,000 rpm in 4T terms.

It might be that I will have to run two injectors in parallel firing on alternate cycles.

[TZ350]

Not what I wanted but interesting, Scraped from the net:- http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=333911

Fuel injector latency and offset

Short story in a nutshell: -

The 'Effective Injection Pulsewidth' is the time that the injector is held open, during which fuel flows at the static flow rate at that condition [F=(dp over injector tip, rated flowrate of injector)]

As the injector driver goes 'on' there is a finite time for the flow to ramp from zero to full, likewise when the driver goes 'off' there is a finite time for the flow to ramp down to next to nothing.

This total time is the latency, confusingly only the initial ramp is referred to as 'the latency' as this is the time between on & full flow with the the ramp down being described as 'lag'.

Long story .....

In the world of programmable ECU's, injector latency, sometimes referred to as offset, is the term that is used that correlates to opening time of the injector. (To an injector design engineer, Opening time is different than offset, as Dave points out. In the SAE spec he references, it defines both, and how to calculate them. In my experience, the ECU manufacturers use this term interchangeably. Latency is really "opening time" = the time elapsed from the start of the logic pulse, to the start of fuel delivery from the injector. In a port injector, this is a function of many design parameters and calibration spring load in the injector used. It's also directly affected by the voltage supplied to the injector by the driver and the operating delta pressure across the injector. Peak and Hold driven injectors are less affected by the battery voltage, compared with saturated drive injectors, but they are still affected.

For example, when I calibrated my 3.8L Porsche club racer with a MOTEC controller, I needed the effective opening time at the dynamic calibration point for a range of battery voltages from 6-16V. I got opening times measured at 1V increments, and used that for programming the look-up table in the ECU.

Dave is correct about closing times being very important in having good linearity. Closing time is not as important to the controller, however, as it primarily impacts the effective duration of injection. (i.e. fuel keeps being delivered after the logic pulse ends) I say it's "not as important" because most ECU's now have so much control authority than they can adjust (lengthen or shorten) the pulse width being commanded of the injector by a large amount, and the effective duration of injection is sort of lost in the noise, as long as it's not excessive. Modern ECU drivers for high impedance injectors employ a zener diode to shunt the flyback current, which allows the magnetic field to collapse very quickly after the drive pulse ends. Assuming reasonable spring loads for most production injectors, most port injectors have closing times in the .4-.7ms range. The important part is that it needs to be CONSISTENT, in which case the ECU's capabilities mask it, making it SEEM unimportant. Opening time, or latency, is more important to the ECU from a timing perspective, to get the fuel shot delivered at the appropriate time. Since most port injectors have opening times in the 1-1.5ms range, this is more critical to overall timing.

Fuel injector latency and offset

This is a value calculated by measuring static and dynamic flow rates or you can also do a linear regression through a series of dynamic flow points such as 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 ms at 10 ms pulse repetition period (100 Hz). Check out SAE spec J1832 for the standard definition.

If you plot flow on the vertical axis and pulsewidth on the horizontal axis the x-intercept is the offset or dead time in milliseconds. This is a function roughly of both the opening time and the closing time but it's more complicated than that because the flow/lift curve and pintle bounce also contribute. Closing time is very important in getting good linearity to small duration of injection.

my experience in automotive fuel systems has shown that many aftermarket manufacturers don't utilize the standards and don't always use correct terminology. In the case of aftermarket ECU manufacturers, they act like they have never looked at an SAE specification for an injector and create all sorts of differing terms for things that are already well defined. I've run into this before in the case of latency, vs. the correct term, "Injector Opening Time". I've also seen offset misused, which has a very specific mathematical definition per SAE. It is sometimes misapplied when the aftermarket manufacturer really means "Injector Opening Time"

Total dwell seat to seat is defined by SAE as "Effective Duration of Injection". That is equal to (in simple terms) (the duration of the logic pulse applied)-(opening time)+(closing time) typically referred to in ms. So, for a port injector with a 1.25ms opening time, and a 0.50ms closing time, the effective duration of injection for a 3.00 ms injection pulse is 2.25ms. Dwell at full flow isn't really much different. Good port fuel injectors are designed so that the transit times from fully closed to fully open for the armature/ball, or armature/pintle, or just armature in the case of a plate style injector are very fast relative to the logic pulses. These are typically on the order of 50 microseconds or less; the best designs are a lot less.

[mr bucketracer]

Sensible, and works for a 4T but the problem I face with my 2T is that an injector small enough for starting and clean running at low rpm is to small when the engine gets on the pipe so you have to have two different sized injectors and swap between them for high and low speed running.

I think my real problem is in finding injectors dynamic enough to handle what would be 28,000 rpm in 4T terms.

It might be that I will have to run two injectors in parallel firing on alternate cycles.

guess you can use one to what was the needle then the other for the rest but find it hard to beleave that in this day and age that one could not do all , main thing on the track is from 7k onwards . the early honda 600 injection was so easy to set up , the map just looked like a dyno graft. all you did was pull the graft up and down + - fuel with the mouse every 500rpm and save it . half hour on the dyno and sorted , this aprilia 550 is more than a day on the dyno to sort , it jumps from map to map depending on how fast you open the thotle

[Drew]

Super simple program to alternate between injectors, and put on a chip.

Important to source power for the controller independently to the item controlled to save cross talk.

[TZ350]

... hard to beleave that in this day and age that one could not do all ...

This project is hampered by my inexperience with EFI, I have no idea of what can be realistically expected from an injector. So I don't really know if my switching problem is a hardware or software/setup issue.

[TZ350]

Some quick 2T numbers.

13,000 rpm
= 216 rps revolutions per second.
= 75,000 degrees per second.
= 75 degrees per milli second.
= 4.8 milli seconds per revolution.
= 3ms, If it takes the injector 1.5 ms to fully open and 0.3ms to close, then 360 degrees and 3ms is all the time you have for conventional fuel injection @ 13k.

For direct fuel injection after the exhaust port is closed its much less, approximately 80 degrees or 1ms.

Interestingly if blowdown is 36 degrees, then at 13,000 rpm a decent mass of gas leaves the cylinder in approximately 0.5ms.

[TZ350]

This is the best I have found so far about latency times:- http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=333911



""Assuming reasonable spring loads for most production injectors. Most port injectors have opening times in the 1-1.5ms range and closing times in the .4-.7ms range.""

The thing I would really like to know is, is how fast the the Chinese after market Pico IWP023 and IWP043 fuel injectors can be opened and closed.