ESE's works engine tuner

[husaberg]

I figured that didn't get done much, do to the case volume not being that easy to reduce. Was I wrong?

As the crankcase volume is a great place to store fresh mixture before its sucked up into the cylinder by the wave action of the pipe, the relative increase in volume by de stroking a 125-150 to a 100 could be beneficial.

[TZ350]

Like I said humans often do things more for the challenge than for any practical reason and taking on that challenge really becomes the actual hobby, but that's ok.

Yes, True, ... I started out trying to build a bike/engine that I could win races with, now its about trying to build a bike/engine that could win races, there is a big difference.

[Frits Overmars]

... an experimental design made simply to find a way past rules and restrictions? - no way!!

Let me rephrase that for you: a design made to stay within rules and restrictions.

How many classes are there designed for technicians to excel, as opposed to riders?

Not enough. And they are getting ever scarcer, even in Grands Prix. In Moto2 you are not even allowed to correct the shortcomings in the mandatory Honda engines.

[husaberg]

I have a fun fact from the thirties Velocette ran a number of tests with a KTT350 (which was their OHC factory racer of the time)
they ran there std straight exhaust with a megaphone curved front pipe rear exit.
Then they replicated the test with the same bike with a totally straight exhaust and magaphone of the exact dimensions and gained 1.5 hp extra... food for thought.

What would be your take Frits and Wob on a 50mm x54.5mm

[WilDun]

Let me rephrase that for you: a design made to stay within rules and restrictions.

Not enough. And they are getting ever scarcer, even in Grands Prix. In Moto2 you are not even allowed to correct the shortcomings in the mandatory Honda engines.

To the first answer
I was just thinking out loud and to me, a true experimenter will not be fazed by rules, probably because he knows that he won't learn anything by doing that, or because he does it for his own satisfaction, probably just to put his thoughts into something tangible, not to win races.
However if he wants to compete with others then he has to do what those "up there" people say he must do.

I think that "TZ" nailed it when he said that, "a bike that I could win races with, now its about trying to build a bike/engine that could win races, there is a big difference" - so the bike that "could win races' places his efforts firmly inside the square, that's how most people are and that's fine......but there are those people in the world who will try bending the rules just for the hell of it and others who will passionately believe that their way is best, a better way to do it and want a chance to prove it.

These "free spirits"are very often the people who resent the big companies becoming dictators and force the general public down their "preferred road". (as has already happened with the two stroke in most countries).
I felt you might have been implying that when you mentioned Moto 2 grands prix..

BTW, how did it come about that Moto 2 all use Honda engines ? - guess it's the same as the tyre scenario? - why not the other classes?

[Frits Overmars]

to me, a true experimenter will not be fazed by rules, probably because he knows that he won't learn anything by doing that

He may not learn what he wished to learn, but learn he will.

there are those people in the world who will try bending the rules just for the hell of it

If the rules are solid they can't be bent. If there are loopholes, you're mad if you don't use them.
I've spent half my life exploring loopholes (and still am); now I also write rulebooks .

These "free spirits"are very often the people who resent the big companies becoming dictators and force the general public down their "preferred road". (as has already happened with the two stroke in most countries).I felt you might have been implying that when you mentioned Moto 2 grands prix.

I plead guilty.

how did it come about that Moto 2 all use Honda engines ?

A despicable deal between Honda and Dorna; a devaluation of Grand Prix motorsport in my opinion.

[Frits Overmars]

What would be your take Frits and Wob on a 50mm x54.5mm

It might work. A long-stroke two-stroke will have better time.areas than a short-stroker. And as an added benefit you may find suitable pistons in the kart world.

[wobbly]

I think a 50 by 54.5 would be just fine at 107cc for whatever class you are looking at.
Its easy enough to get good 50mm pistons and 110 to 120 rods to go on the crank and as long as its designed to be run "as it should " by spinning
to 14,000 all day as we know that stroke can handle , then a very fast motor would be easy to design, as well as build.
Weld an alloy liner into what was originally a 54 bore I take it, then plate it.

[Flettner]

A despicable deal between Honda and Dorna; a devaluation of Grand Prix motorsport in my opinion.

Totaly agree, they have ruined GP motorsport.

[Drew]

It is. But it feels like cheating. And for the reason you've given I can't see stored energy remaining legal for long.

Besides, with less storage I could use regenerated brake energy to cool the engine.

In fact there's distinct possibilities in using a very large alternator and an even larger starter motor...

Stored energy has been a part of racing since the year dot. Total loss ignition is very common.

Cheating? Don't see it that way, but I get your drift.

Big gennie, and starter are probably big weight. My 21amp Shorai is 400grams I think.

[Ocean1]

Stored energy has been a part of racing since the year dot. Total loss ignition is very common.

Cheating? Don't see it that way, but I get your drift.

Big gennie, and starter are probably big weight. My 21amp Shorai is 400grams I think.

But less weight than, say another 20hp engine, legal, and getting lighter every year as motor and battery tech rapidly evolves. And for how much time is that existing engine on full throttle anyway?

See, with probably somewhere around 20kg worth of kit you could run that one engine at full throttle 100% of the time, charging a battery when you don't need that much and then, when you do want power....

It gets better. An engine that can be tuned for a static 12krpm can make more hp than one that has to have power across 30% of its rev range. So a nominal 35hp engine running at peak hp rpm full time, charging a battery for, say 30% of that time can provide maybe 50hp during those times when you want it. And a 50hp bucket is nothing to sneeze at.

[pete376403]

If the engine is just to power a generator, and the electric motor is actually turning the wheels, does this mean the bike has two motors? Is that allowed?
Tyrell, because they were stuck with naturally aspirated engines, tried to get turbos banned in F1 by claiming the two engine thing, one being the petrol powered engine driving the wheels and the other a gas turbine powering a supercharger compressor. They were not successful in their claim.

[Ocean1]

If the engine is just to power a generator, and the electric motor is actually turning the wheels, does this mean the bike has two motors? Is that allowed?
Tyrell, because they were stuck with naturally aspirated engines, tried to get turbos banned in F1 by claiming the two engine thing, one being the petrol powered engine driving the wheels and the other a gas turbine powering a supercharger compressor. They were not successful in their claim.

A generator/motor used like that is considered just a transmission in most heavy industry. Until you stick a battery in the system that's really all it is.

F1 regenerative systems are politically tenable simply because they're environmentally shiny, but I'm pretty sure that if someone makes them work too well there'll be heated discussions about cheque book racing...

[Drew]

There's nothing in the rules about electric bikes. One could be made to destroy everything burning fossil fuel, with their current cc limits.

Can even put Mark's regen under brakes idea to effect pretty easily.

[koba]

Wobbly, when you talk of pipe length, is it total length, or to the baffle mid point?